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À La Chasse À L'Amaranth, La Marante Mara Ment.

lore Amaranth maux de tête

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88 réponses à ce sujet

#1 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 11 novembre 2012 - 10:55

Bon, Ceux qui suivent le lore ont sans doute déjà entendu parler de l'Amaranth. Sinon, retour ici


MK avait plus ou moins dit que nul, y compris Talos ou Vivec, ne l'avait atteint. Et la, il nous lâche que si, avec quelques numéros en rapport avec les sermons, quelques anciennes citations, des trucs de Skyrim, et si ça se trouve même de Redguard, voire Daggerfall. Autant dire qu'il prévoyait son coup. Il y a une discussion qui fait actuellement 5 sujet de 8 pages de 30 messages. Ok, je suis gentil, je vous ait tout synthétisé.

Malheuresement, il y a trop de balises de citations, donc ce résumé n'est visible que sur mon profil ou sur ce framapad.

D'abord, Le mini résumé des trucs de Kirkbride, puis les citations. ensuite... lisez le frama, et à vous.
EDIT : le résumé est trop long, même pour le framapad. Il ne reste donc que sur mon profil qu'on peut trouver la version complète, si quelqu'un a une meilleure idée... Je vais le faire passer petit à petit. La suite bientôt.

SeriousFace
Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:06 PM


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Volume IV. Only half a thread left before things get messed up.

One
Two
Three
Go.



SeriousFace
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

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Here we go again.

Accumulated Kirkbride Klues:


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No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

(Toesock, sorry you took offense at the description of the demise of Barfok.)

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.

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It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.

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It's right strange that Nir is only mentioned once, innit now?

Closer.

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"Funny that "Nir" in dragon-talk is "hunt"."

Great find.

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Do you know who else is missing?

"Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)
*Seek and you shall find. I hid it."
Closer and closer.

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29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.

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Off to bed, but it's a locked room mystery.

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Quick rundown:

1) A person, place, or thing has achieved Amaranth, the New Existence

2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth

3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?

4) Whoa, the cops are coming again

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"So Amaranth is not the Dreamer, is that confirmation?"

Not that Dreamer, no. The Amaranth has jumped past Tamriel, as in the purpose of the Loveletter.

Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

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No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

(Toesock, sorry you took offense at the description of the demise of Barfok.)

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.



Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

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Lady Nerevar, on 01 November 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:



Would this one thing be a named person/concept, or an idea which we'd describe? It feels that the latter is just beyond arm's reach, while the former continues to elude me.
It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.




Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:28 PM


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I'll say this: it won't feel like a letdown once you find it.



Lady Nerevar
Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:42 PM


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Alright. Liberty comes closest to what I'm thinking of. And I have named it freedom. This Amaranth must have made itself known prior to the creation of the mortal world, if it necessitates the allowance of your dreams to dream, and since that's the one time it would have happened without us realizing it. Looking at the creation myths, prior to Lorkhan/Akatosh, who are too obvious, we have the Anu-Padhome diad. And Nir. One single mention of Nir, who gave birth to everything, catalyst to all existence, who then allows herself to die and be relegated to some abstract Female Principle. Acted upon, sure, but also the lead role without whom we would have nothing.

Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:45 PM

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It's right strange that Nir is only mentioned once, innit now?

Closer.




SeriousFace
Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:46 Pm

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Because the other thread has exceeded the post limit and this topic deserves its own.


And what fun this is! I love a good scavenge. Let's enumerate the previous thread's suspects.

The Allessian "One"
Godhead
Dreamsleeve
Dagoth Ur
Mankar Camoran
Language
Peryite
Numidium
Love
Mnemoli
Hun'Ding
Player Characters
Cyrus
Sotha Sil
Anu
Alandro Sul
Allessia
Nerevar
Auriel
Magnus
Hist
Nu Mantia
Nirn
M'aiq the Liar

It's someone we know, someone or something that has appeared in the official games, even. It "won't feel like a letdown." Some say that it must be mortal. Is it a person or an idea? Both? Whom do we know who is known for sleeping? For dreaming? For being in another state of consciousness?

Break out the heavy books, I think (and rather hope) it's going to be a long night.


Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:01 PM

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Thoughtcriminal, on 01 November 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:



Funny that "Nir" in dragon-talk is "hunt".


Great find.



Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:47 PM

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SithisLorkhan, on 01 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:



Do you know who else is missing?


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Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)

*Seek and you shall find. I hid it.
Provient d'ici

Closer and closer.



Lady Nerevar
Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:52 PM

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Toesock, on 01 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

MK must be choking on his own laughter.



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Closer and closer.
The "you're this close but I'm not telling you" face he's making as he types this is absolutely adorable.


Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:52 PM

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Toesock, on 01 November 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:



blind/maimed...sensory deprivation and hallucination?


I love it when you people work together.

SithisLorkhan
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:01 AM

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SeriousFace, on 02 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:



The Elder Scrolls collective? Or a single entity charged with their keeping? Or some conglomerate being that they form the myriad protuberances of?


MK says that Ada-Mantia is a Scrollcase.

The Scrolls are Towers.


Lady Nerevar
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

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"The presence of deaf witness, this is what the numbers are. They hang onto the Aurbis as the last nostalgia of their godhood." The 29th.


These numbers, these concepts that make up the world, bear witness to what made them.


SithisLorkhan
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

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SeriousFace, on 02 November 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:



But it must be referring to itself! There are 36 numbers, each assigned the meaning and a second number, each corresponding to a particular Sermon, this Sermon was placed here because it was 29, the 29th, Captive Sage, 217.



Two, One, and Seven Et'Ada created Mundus.

Two gods in the Enantiomorph (Akatosh, Lorkhan).
One Observer (Magnus).
Seven Aedra outside of the Enantiomorph (Zenithar, Stendarr, Dibella, Mara, Kynareth, Arkay, Julianos)


Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:16 AM


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29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.

blai5000
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:21 AM

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Don't forget the Sword at the Center. He edit'd that in.


The Captive Sage
The Enantiomorph
The Missing
The Sword at the Center
The Egg, or Six times the Wise
Something about the Corners, which gets messed up.

29
68
11
39
18
Something messed up with 242 or 100?


Toesock
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:30 AM


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Toesock, on 02 November 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

It's Kirkbridian math:

29 = 2 + 9 =11 + 7 = 18.
Lets put this together.

The Captive Sage = The Enantiomorph + The Missing = The Number of the Master + The Sword at the Center = The Egg, or Six Times the Wise.
With the point between The Corners of House of Troubles and The Corners of the World.

Are you trollin'?

SithisLorkhan
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:37 AM

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SeriousFace, on 02 November 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:



If Nir is the polar opposite to ???, on the perpendicular axis to A/P's light and dark, and Nir means hunt in Dragontongue, what would we call the opposite of to hunt? To cultivate? To flee? To protect?






To hunt is to kill something for nourishment. The opposite would be to kill yourself to feed others. Sacrifice.


Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:07 AM

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Off to bed, but it's a locked room mystery.

Lady Nerevar
Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:17 AM

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It has to be something at the Anu-Padhome-Nir level. Something big, not subgradient.

The Amaranth is what allows for the existence of all this creation business.
It is whoever else was present at that enantiomorphic moment. This is what gets me - someone lost or so obvious I'm looking straight past.
His identity is in the numbers, I think, though it beats me how.



Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:35 AM

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Quick rundown:


1) A person, place, or thing has achieved Amaranth, the New Existence

2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth

3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?

4) Whoa, the cops are coming again


Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:53 AM

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Peloponnese, on 02 November 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:



So Amaranth is not the Dreamer, is that confirmation?


Not that Dreamer, no. The Amaranth has jumped past Tamriel, as in the purpose of the Loveletter.




Toesock
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:27 PM


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Lets try and squeeze some info out of the numbers.

The "captive sage" consists of the enantiomorph and the missing (the missing the witness I presume)

The sum of the enantiomorph and missing witness is "the number of the master" (i.e. 1 and 1, sharmat and hortator, possibly another representation of enantiomorph) 11 is considered a "master number" in numerology as well. http://www.tokenrock...ter_numbers.php

The number of the master, 1+1=11, combined with the sword at the center (amaranth?) = the egg or six times the wise (I'm thinking about vivec's egg, or argonian egg-cracking)

The next number is 4.5, halfway between aedra and daedra, the egg divided by four.


SeriousFace
Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

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Others have submitted the Sermon of Numbers and speculation regarding the blinding and maddening effects of the Elder Scrolls.


SeriousFace
Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:14 PM

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Sifrael, on 02 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:



Does this puzzle have something to do with this one :

http://forums.bethso...st__p__19037086

http://forums.bethso...st__p__19051230




Probably not. Lady N and the Elk have expressed disapproval of taking the Summoning Day Letters seriously, so unless they're playing a very cunning game of subterfuge, it's probably unrelated.


Toesock
Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:22 PM

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Ok, the egg or six times the wise is probably Vivec - 3x6=18 (and 3&6 make 36!)






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Vivec then reached out from the egg all his limbs and features, merging with the simulacrum of his mother, gilled and blended in all the arts of the starwounded East, under water and in fire and in metal and in ash, six times the wise, and he became the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the sex-death of language and unique in all the middle world.
Sword in the center - found in the scripture of love:

The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened. Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality are ancient ideas ready for their graves, or at least the essence of such. This scripture is directly ordered by the codes of Mephala, the origin of sex and murder, defeated only by those who take up those ideas without my intervention. The religious elite is not a tendency or a correlation. They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto. This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite.”

I find that difficult to interpret.

There is a part of the Loveletter that deals with that paragraph:


We begin to see the first inkling of emergence, which by its nature requires the merging of two-fold powers. Inevitably, this leads to another gradient, but this time by forceful process: the Trap of the Lunar God. The Aedra are Named at this time, having lent their hands to what was to be the arena of the eternally impossible: Mundus, or Exactness.
Oblivion to Mundus: debris of all possibility to anchor of all things.

Actually, that possibly refers to the creation of the world and the deaths that were necessary to bring it into being.

Also, perhaps 4.5, halfway between the corners of creation and the troubles, represents the new universe.


Phoenix_Neko
Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:01 PM

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Merry Eyesore the Elk, on 01 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.


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Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel said:

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death.
...
The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.
...
The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic.


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Merry Eyesore the Elk, on 01 November 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.


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Sermon Twenty-Nine said:

30. The Scarab. 10






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Merry Eyesore the Elk, on 02 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth

3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?




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Magne-Ge Pantheon said:

He is the Fore-Dawn and watcher of the Y. That their resiliency has been tampered with since the Blur is a curse that has vexed his mind into near-immobility. If Scarab-Framer could achieve the insight that escapes him still, the Y might repopulate itself, free of all evil.


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Mythic Dawn Commentaries, vol. 3 said:

By the Book, take this key and pierce the divine shell that encloses the mantle-takers! The skin of gold! SCARAB AE AURBEX!






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Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel said:

Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.




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The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Ten said:

'The eyelid of the kingdom shall fill thirty and six folios, but the eye shall read the world.'
...

We pledge ourselves to you, the Frame-maker, the Scarab: a world for us to love you in, a cloak of dirt to cherish. Betrayed by your ancestors when you were not even looking.




Luagar2
Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:34 PM

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TC01, on 02 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:



A thought- if we're looking for something opposite to Nir, Khajiit myth paints Nirni and Azurah as enemies and rivals... is it possible this is relevant?







Probably not, but I feel like we're running low on ideas here.That crossed my mind as well, but Azura wouldn't really fit the bill. Then I wondered about "Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets", but that would be highly lame nor is it really named.


Toesock
Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

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Neradac, on 02 November 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:
Nine spikes, there are eight planets.
Edit: the three orbs surrounding the cycle are M, G and S.

Masser and Secunda anyone? Note that the M is in fact bigger than the S. Now the third one is one massive thing. You see two crescent moons in front of one another, thats when the Mane is born (well, full, although I assume the crescent is only there for symbolisms sake. since theyre two crescent moons back to back). One side has the G with fancy symbolism the other sends a scarab in the cycle (or at least I think thats what it looks like.

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MerchantMudCrab, on 02 November 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Hmm.. the moons are always there. Maimed? Close to Nirn?



The moons are the corpse of Lorkhan. They came into being after his death at convention. They couldn't be the original witness.

Toesock
Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

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Neradac, on 02 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:



Very likely, did Kirkbride react to the notion?

Also, whats the meaning behind six times the wise? Because I see six spikes on surrounding the G in the oghma and I cant tell if my conspiracy goggles are on.


Lady Nerevar said it was "accidentally important"...

I believe the wise refers to the tribunal, ie 3. 3 time 6 is 18, which is the number for that sentence.


Muatra
Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:05 PM

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Neradac, on 02 November 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:



Also, anyone know what the sequence of numbers he gave at the beginning was?



He's just playing around with 29.
2 and 9 come from splitting it up.
11 is from adding 2 and 9.
7 is from subtracting 2 from 9.
18 is from multiplying 2 and 9.
4.5 is from dividing 2 into 9.


Neradac
Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:42 PM

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But man, that Peryite takes the lead as the king god this time? I knew there was a reason he was depicted as a dragon but this?



As for the observer: has this been identified yet? http://i.imgur.com/5cQ6o.jpg Moths, everywhere.


Merry Eysore the Elk
Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

Modifié par Sifraël, 11 novembre 2012 - 19:05.

There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#2 fabinou87

fabinou87

Posté 11 novembre 2012 - 23:53

J'ai commencé à lire la conversation sur ton profil.
Certaines choses m'échappent mais dans l'ensemble comme tu le fais ressortir dans ton titre Nir/Mara ressort souvent dans les discussions, la piste est intéressante même si je n'ai vraiment aucune idée d'où cela nous emmène, à quoi cela rimerait ...

Parce que justement quelles seront les implications de la découverte en question ? Qu'est ce que savoir que Nir a atteint Amaranth (rêve par elle même en dehors du Godhead vulgairement non ?) va changer dans notre perception des choses ?

Une idée qu'il faudrait peut être creuser serait de revoir la méthode de travail : j'ai l'impression que c'est trop dispersé. En fait MK explique que quelque chose/quelqu'un atteint Amaranth, que cela est caché dans des textes de jeu/textes officiels et que cela ne paraîtra pas invraisemblable quand la vérité éclatera au gros jour ; moralité il faut repartir sur les textes officiels de MK dans les derniers TES, yen a pas 15 000 non plus, et voir si un thème en particulier n'est pas souvent subtilement traité.
On en revient à Nir/Mara avec le discours de Mankar sur Nirn : a première vu on se questionne sur la nature de Lorkhan, mais peut être que cela permet de glisser certaines choses sur le plan qui pourraient nous avoir échappé ... (ce qui serait d'autant plus retord qu'il a me semble t'il désapprouvé ce texte en disant qu'il voulait soit disant en envoyer une autre version, histoire de dire "ne prenez pas cela au sérieux").

Modifié par fabinou87, 11 novembre 2012 - 23:58.


#3 Griscendré

Griscendré

Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 17:58

Si Nir à atteint Amaranth, pourquoi est-elle "morte" ? En dehors du Godhead, la toute-puissance n'est pas infini ? Sa veut pas dire qu'elle à atteint un stade encore plus puissant que Anu/Sithis ?

#4 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 19:28

Voir le messageGriscendré, le 12 novembre 2012 - 17:58, dit :

Si Nir à atteint Amaranth, pourquoi est-elle "morte" ? En dehors du Godhead, la toute-puissance n'est pas infini ? Sa veut pas dire qu'elle à atteint un stade encore plus puissant que Anu/Sithis ?


Il ne faut absolument pas raisonner en terme de puissance. Ca ne veut rien dire. De toute façon :

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Du Mundus à la Mort mortelle : du centre au bientôt recyclé.
"Ceci doit être vu comme une opportunité et en aucun cas lassante, même si certains préféreront abandonner, tant il est plus aisé d'ambrasser l'amant que d'en devenir un soi-même."
Nous voici avec la grande résignation de l’Écriture Sacrée : imaginer la subcréation APRÈS la mort mortelle, dont l'esquisse se voudrait un écho du Mundus, et à travers cet imaginant, l'échec de tant.


La mortalité (et le "recyclage", càd la mort) est une des étapes vers l'Amaranth.


Ensuite, si Mara/Nir Est la première idée qui vient à l'esprit, MK semble plutôt dire que l'Amaranth est l'Observateur de Anu/Padomay, ajouté à Nir :

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Do you know who else is missing?

"Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)
*Seek and you shall find. I hid it."

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29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.


Les idées les plus développées sont Nir/Mara/Dib-Mara-Kyn, Alessia, les Dwemeres, et Mnemoli.

Quelques passages :

Toesock
Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:58 PM

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Okay, I'm looking at the Anuad again.


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"The first ones were brothers: Anu and Padomay. They came into the Void, and Time began."



There are already four entities present here, all of whom could be potential witnesses.


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As Anu and Padomay wandered the Void, the interplay of Light and Darkness created Nir. Both Anu and Padomay were amazed and delighted with her appearance, but she loved Anu, and Padomay retreated from them in bitterness.
The birth of Nir. She comes from their mingling - what is in other stories called the Aurbis. She is the subject of their rivalry, thus the female principle.

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Nir became pregnant, but before she gave birth, Padomay returned, professing his love for Nir. She told him that she loved only Anu, and Padomay beat her in rage. Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time. Nir gave birth to Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Anu, grieving, hid himself in the sun and slept.


Presumably, this is the event which was witnessed. Creation is born afterwards. It is not the world we know, but a previous one. And finally, something significant happens - the first death. That of Nir herself.


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Meanwhile, life sprang up on the twelve worlds of creation and flourished. After many ages, Padomay was able to return to Time. He saw Creation and hated it. He swung his sword, shattering the twelve worlds in their alignment. Anu awoke, and fought Padomay again. The long and furious battle ended with Anu the victor. He cast aside the body of his brother, who he believed was dead, and attempted to save Creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel. As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever.
The creation of Nirn as we know it - an entity distinct from Nir. Anu is struck through the chest, as Lorkhan was in other stories. (Perhaps it is significant that Lorkhan and the aedra have no part in Nirn's creation in this version) Both are pulled outside time forever, and might count as "missing". Or perhaps one can still see them grappling outside time, during a dragon break.

The blood of Padomay becomes the aedra, the blood of Anu the stars, and their combined blood the aedra. Men and Elves go on to rival each other in a reflection of the Anu/Padomay conflict.

Nir is distinct from Nirn. She is not even its mother - she is the mother of it's original unbroken form before Anu pieces it together. She perhaps represents a world that only existed in a past that is no longer true.

Obviously this is different from other accounts, that where Nirn is conceived of by Lorkhan the et'ada to be a place of transcendence. Where the aedra construct it, only to find themselves entrapped in the new concept they have created - mortal death. Only to subgradate further into the mortal races, perhaps one day capable of finding that final subgradient, that state beyond death - the Amaranth.

In the Anuad, death is unintentional. It originates from Creation. Nir dies giving life to Creation in the same way that the Aedra die giving life to Nirn in other stories. Creation/Nirn are mortality. So as to the witness - how does he/she achieve amaranth? The only way through is death. To illustrate this problem, think about the Lorkhan/Akatosh/Mangus triad. Lorkhan and Akatosh fight, catalyzed by the creation of Nirn. Magnus abandons Nirn to preserve his mortality, living to tell the tale. If this is the model, how can the observer achieve amaranth?

So what are your thoughts on the origin of death in the Anuad, and its implications on Amaranth?

Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

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Girai_Harkaanius
Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:59 PMYour question, "who the hell is the King of Alinor" is exactly why I brought him up. He apparently was outside of time, was the first to break the Dragon... and most importantly, is someone that would fly entirely under our radar normally. That seems to pretty much summarize the last place we haven't been searching, over the last few days.

Edit: ...and he's only in Obscure Texts... breaking one of MK's first rules. But honestly, try to find someone/thing who is in-game that we have not guessed yet.

blai5000, on 04 November 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Not true. The book Where Were You When the Dragon Broke is from Morrowind.

So's its out-of-time re-examination. Ahem.


Merry Eyesore the Elk, on 05 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said: Stay good.

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Alessia didn't have the power to absorb dragon souls. Hers was a much more nuanced power: to dream of liberty and give it a name and on her deathbed make Covenant with the Aka-Tusk.

Perhaps if you had read her histories of the Dragon War, this would be more clear.


rottendeadite
Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:27 AM

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RavenBlade, on 06 November 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:



The entire Dwemer race seems like a likely contender, no?

Sorry if this has been discussed earlier. I haven't been following the threads, but I wanted to toss my two cents in. I'm a lore noob, actually. Forgive me If I'm way too off.
That's hilarious. I woke up at 4:00AM this morning with this very thought. I lost an hour of sleep because of that.

So everyone grab your shoe horns and let's plaaaaay...

Crowd: "MAKE! IT! FIT!"

*cue applause*

From Kirkbride's very helpful rundown post here...

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1) A person, place, or thing has achieved Amaranth, the New Existence


2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth

3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?



The Dwemer, especially after Red Mountain, can certainly be considered both a "people" and a "concept."

Since The Elk has suggested that anyone who becomes the Amaranth wouldn't hang around the current Aurbis-as-we-know-it, (I can't find a good reference since the Imperial Library's Drupal install has gone to [NUMINIT] and I won't link to that gameskyrim forum) and we've not seen hide nor hair of the Dwemer since the aforementioned events, their behavior certainly fits.

Regarding point 2: Is Lorkhan considered part of the Original Creation? I don't think he is, he seems a secondary creation to me. But if so, his heart is involved and that's a connection.

Regarding point 3: If this Amaranth took place after the original creation, its involvement with the current Aurbis is irrelevant, and this new Amaranth's Aurbis is beyond our ability to comprehend unless someone's made a game about it...?

We can also try to visualize the Dwemer as a concept external from the initial act of creation. Since they seem so skeptical about the concept of the Aedra and Daedra as Gods, could they represent an abstract concept such as "doubt?" A pyrrhonic presence observing the act of creation?

Merry Eyesore the Elk
Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

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Toesock, on 06 November 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

I think we can ignore 11, 7, and 18.

You could.

Adanorcil
Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:48 AM

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Pot shot the second: Mnemoli (and the stars?)

Arguments separated by lines for easy reference.


Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break)

Untime condition fulfilled.


..and so to most , the middle dawn is little more than a undisputable and grandiose display of mystic power, which is to say nonsense, and few regard it as the numinous gateway that it really signifies. Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen... (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break)

"This is not just a comet that predicts a good harvest next near, you guys." This is a disk, i.e. a world? A world visiting ours, looking down with curiosity whenever it can?

The number of the Hurling Disk is 17 (Sermon Twenty-Nine), which according to this websiteabout the science of numerology represents (among just about everything else you'd want it to represent) love for all of humanity and is the Star – it is immortality – a name that lives on after you have left this plane of existence. Got nothing on the number behind it.


Compare the emphasis on a single word in all of the following texts:

Above them all is the horizon where only one stands, though no one stands there yet. It is proof of the new. (Sermon Thirteen)

I have seen proof, as any who come Up during Landfall Season, when the winds die down enough Above that all may make pilgrimage under the banner of Vehk and Vehk. [...] When stabilized, the words become proof. (Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel)

"The middle dawn is an axis for the spirits of the Foretime. As such, many of the beliefs of the primitive psijiics cannot be discounted; here, in this place, are proofs within proofs... (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break) This passage is followed by the first quoted line in this post.


Where does Jubal-lun-Sul go for his pilgrimage?

The psijiics hold [the Blue Star] in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world... (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break)


Who did he meet there?

The Digitals say we come from another star, but so many have forgotten. I have not, for my lineage granted me audience with Memory. (Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel)

When highlighting 'Memory', I am referring to the Greek root in Mnemoli. The star link is self-explanatory.


There is a certain distinction between Mnemoli (and her kind) and other stars. At least, that's what Mankar suggests by despising the former and praising the the latter. I get the impression that his grudge against them stems from the fact that they only show themselves when linear time is absent, which he considers callous?



Last, but clearly not least:
What's up with the Blue Star itself? That's a good little hidden bit that I don't want to ruin. Someone go find it. (Some forum post way back when)



rottendeadite
Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:51 PM

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I'm trying to tie down the parameters for the search, here. What can we learn from these clues?


From the Rundown:


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1)A person, place, or thing has achieved Amaranth, the New Existence
2)This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth
3)But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?
4)Whoa, the cops are coming again

1) He's intentionally vague about whether this is a person, a place, or a thing. So far we've been pretty crazy about it being a person. I think we're making a mistake here. However, I can't possibly imagine how a place or a thing could dream, unless it's KINMUNE, but according to this post:





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It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.
So that might rule out any Exoforms, unless KINMUNE's presence in Saarthal was known to developers for a very long time.

A concept, however, such as a God, could well do all the dreaming it wanted.

Also it's probably irrelevant, but the KINMUNE text was posted here with the thread title "For you, my Sul, Happy Birthday," which is possibly a reference to Alandro Sul, Nerevar's shield thane, and so on that note let's move on to #2.

2) The original creation, Nir, the witness figure in the Enantiomorph, and the numbers are entwined but not the same thing. Connections can be found everywhere between them, but nothing so far has felt solid enough for everyone to get behind.

The Original Creation is a reference to the creation of the Aurbis and, as explained in the Annotated Anuad, the binding of Anu & Padomay to create Nir, a personification of the Aurbis. Nir gave birth to the twelve worlds that would eventually become Nirn as we know it, and Anu & Padomay fell outside of Time.

Who can we consider to be the Witness Figure in this creation? And which creation are we discussing?

The creation of Nir? A result of the interplay between Anu & Padomay, before anything else existed. Before them there was only the Void without time. Does the Void dream? I can't imagine it would have very interesting dreams. Seems like the Void would have a rather vacuous personality.

Nir's creation of the Worlds that became Nirn? Nir created the worlds by romancing Anu, which means Padomay witnessed their creation, in a creepy sort of "roommate who doesn't understand the concept of boundaries" sort of way. But it seems as though the Witness needs to be wounded or blinded or something, and I'm not sure where that happens here, unless emotional wounding counts. Does it?

3) I really haven't figured this one out yet. Perhaps the Amaranth's dream hasn't yet started?

4) MK lives in a dangerous neighborhood.




dinmenel
Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

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Toesock, on 09 November 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:



Ok. It's high time we stop guessing and start making things up.

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dinmenel, on 06 November 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

The Trans-Shadowed Sun, Ward of the Digital.



Woooo, I'm not the only one! Maybe this fedora isn't aluminium after all.

Add some Shadowkey in, though. Shadows are the reflections of possible worlds created by conflicting forces. Azra attempted to cross over into the possible worlds of shadow, to 'instantiate all Azras at once,' and ended up trapped in a crystal (29, Captive Sage?). Magnus is the Witness of Mundane creation; we've seen his excised Eye ourselves. The Sun is depicted as a captive in the Song of Aevar Stone-Singer, and is freed by a flaming eye. As well, Sermon 10 links Magnus to the fiery eye idea. The Digitals (link to numbers?) include Magnus according to the Loveletter, which also states that he is not their Ward. I think it's likely that the original creation's witness was a Sun as well - or, rather, a Sun-Shadow split; the single, realized reality (Sun) and the reflection of possibility (its Shadow). So it looks like this

Nir (Prison-Freedom) / Anu-Padomay (Stasis-Change) / Sun-Shadow (Reality-Possibility)

What if the original Sun was successful in the same thing Azra tried? What if the Sun/Shadow split recombined (Trans-Shadowed Sun)? Absolute realization (no possibility, all reality) + infinite possibility (all possibility, no reality) = absolutely infinite realized possibility + [NULL]. Absolutely infinite realized possibility = Amaranth?

Or perhaps we don't need Shadowkey at all. What do you get when you punch a hole in a Void?

Cold/warm, Eyesore?

On numerology:
29 (the Captive Sage) = 2+9 = 11 (the Master)
The Captive Sage is composed of the Enantiomorph and the Missing. It decomposes into the Master.
2+ 9 = 11 (the Master)
The Enantiomorph and the Missing give the Master.
11 = 11 (the Master)
11 + 11 = 22 (Unknown, Master Builder)
11+11+11 = 33 (the Master Teacher, or the Anticipations)
Three Masters give the Master Teacher. "It represents self-sacrifice and beliefs in Utopia. It is often co-dependent, and is sometimes a compulsive liar."
7+18 = 25 (the Emperor, and Sermon 25 has to do with VV/VV city, and includes this line: 'This is the flowering scheme of the Aurbis. This is the promise of the PSJJJ : egg, image, man, god, city, state. I serve and am served. I am made of wire and string and mortar and I accede my own precedent, world without am.'

I dunno. Make of that what you will. The Captive Sage is the Master Teacher, sacrificing self for creation and the Flowering Scheme of Aurbis? I dunno.

Je posterai la suite lorsque je le pourrais (trop de balises "quote", encore une fois, et c'est dur à lire sans)

Modifié par Sifraël, 12 novembre 2012 - 19:54.

There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#5 Griscendré

Griscendré

Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 19:56

Ah, donc Nir aurait fait exprès de mourir ? Mais les divinités (in Godhead) ne sont-elles pas immortelles, et lorsqu'une déité se fait "tuer", sa veut pas juste dire qu'elle  perd beaucoup et que sa conscience et dispersé au 4 vents ? Tu dit que la mort est une technique pour sortir du Godhead, normal, c'est Lorkhan qui à créer Mundus (enfin pas vraiment, mais tu vois se que je veux dire), mais les divinités ne peuvent pas mourir comme je l'ai dit ci-dessus, Nir aurait donc trouver une technique pour mourir et atteindre son but ? Le CHIM est donc la première technique pour sortir du Godhead (le CHIM est une technique des mortelles pour atteindre la divinité, à moins que celle-ci soit aussi utilisé par les dieux Lorkhaniques pour sortir du Godhead ?). Et donc si on considère que CHIM=1er stade de "quittage" du Godhead, la mort véritable d'une divinité en serait le second ?

#6 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 20:53

Voir le messageGriscendré, le 12 novembre 2012 - 19:56, dit :

Ah, donc Nir aurait fait exprès de mourir ?
Ce n'est pas vraiment mourir, mais atteindre un état où la mortalité existe. Et il est quasiment s$ur que Nir n'est pas l'Amaranth.


Voir le messageGriscendré, le 12 novembre 2012 - 19:56, dit :

Mais les divinités (in Godhead) ne sont-elles pas immortelles, et lorsqu'une déité se fait "tuer", sa veut pas juste dire qu'elle  perd beaucoup et que sa conscience et dispersé au 4 vents ?
C'est ce qu'on observe, mais rien ne nous autorise à en faire un cas général ; surtout qu'on pourrait y voire une subgradience vers des mortels.

Voir le messageGriscendré, le 12 novembre 2012 - 19:56, dit :

Tu dit que la mort est une technique pour sortir du Godhead, normal, c'est Lorkhan qui à créer Mundus (enfin pas vraiment, mais tu vois se que je veux dire), mais les divinités ne peuvent pas mourir comme je l'ai dit ci-dessus, Nir aurait donc trouver une technique pour mourir et atteindre son but ?
La Loveletter décrit la subgardience ; la subgradience est ce qui permet d'atteindre Z ; un des états avéré de subgradience est la mort mortelle. Rien de plus.

Le problème qui me vient encore est de concilier la vision "Lorkhan propose de créer le Mundus pour atteindre Nu-Mantia", retirant au passage la divinité/ la toute puissance de pas mal de monde et rendant Auri-El et les Elfes pas contents (surtout dans GBT Le Monomythe) et la vision "l'interaction d'Anu et Padomay créa Nir", (surtout GBT L'Anuade paraphrasée) avec l'Observateur/blind-maimed shield-thane qui deviendra l'Amaranth.

La réponse trop directe et intuitive (et donc fausse) est de dire que le second est une métaphore pour Lorkahn et Akatosh qui bossent ensemble à Nir, avec Magnus qui Observe et Trahit. Ce que j'en comprend, c'est que Lorkhan/Aka/Mag se passe un gradient en seddous ; Nir existait plus ou moins déjà avant, mais c'est Lorkhan qui a eu l'idée de la créer/utiliser pour s'évader.

Oh, et puis tant qu'on y est, suberbe post(comme d'hab) de rotendeadite

Voir le messagerottendeadite, le 12 novembre 2012 - 19:02, dit :

Thematically, Rebel/King/Observer could be an enantiomorph, but the strictest definition of an enantiomorph is here.  An object and its mirror image are enantiomorphs, opposites.  This works the same way in chemistry: rectus and sinister formations of a compound are mirror images of each other.  It's worth noting that the Observer does not (strictly speaking) have to be present, but for the enantiomorph to produce a result, the Observer must be present to "solidify the waveform."  I don't know if this has anything to do with the theory of Consciousness Causes Collapse but I'd love it if it did.

A similar phenomenon also exists in sub-atomic particles, where the spin of two particles mirror each other.  However, this is where the similarity ends, as weak-force interaction between the two particles violates the parity.

If you're somewhat Asian-minded, as I am, it's easier to imagine the (or an) enantiomorph as the Tao, the result of the interactions between Yin and Yang, two perfectly equal and opposing forces.

Alors là, ça fait encore une idée de plus que MK s'intéresse à la physique, et a prévu des trucs avec des explications vachement compliquées depuis le début.


Voir le messageGriscendré, le 12 novembre 2012 - 19:56, dit :

Le CHIM est donc la première technique pour sortir du Godhead (le CHIM est une technique des mortelles pour atteindre la divinité, à moins que celle-ci soit aussi utilisé par les dieux Lorkhaniques pour sortir du Godhead ?). Et donc si on considère que CHIM=1er stade de "quittage" du Godhead, la mort véritable d'une divinité en serait le second ?


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Nous voici avec la grande résignation de l’Écriture Sacrée : imaginer la subcréation APRÈS la mort mortelle, dont l'esquisse se voudrait un écho du Mundus, et à travers cet imaginant, l'échec de tant.
Les rapports des Digitaux sur les actes du Dieu Lunaire dans tout ceci se nomme la Grande Douleur : "Le Dieu Lunaire a échoué avec ses propres moyens, à montrer aux nouveaux rejetons comment ils pourraient ne pas être."
Vous dans la Quatrième ère avez déjà été témoins de nombreuses tentatives d'atteindre le dernier subgradient de tout AE, cet état qui existe au-delà de la mort mortelle. Le Numidium. L'Effort. La Tour Prolixe. CHIM. L'énantiomorphe. Le Scarabée qui s'est Transformé en Nouvel Homme.
Tout simplement, comme les Dieux ne peuvent connaître la joie comme les mortels leur création, seuls les mortels peuvent comprendre la joie de la Liberté en devenant des souches des modèles qui permettent de supplanter la mort mortelle.

Le CHIM n'est qu'une Voie de Marche parmi d'autres. Ce qu'il y a ensuite est très flou.



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Sifrael, on 02 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:



Does this puzzle have something to do with this one :

http://forums.bethso...st__p__19037086

http://forums.bethso...st__p__19051230




Probably not. Lady N and the Elk have expressed disapproval of taking the Summoning Day Letters seriously, so unless they're playing a very cunning game of subterfuge, it's probably unrelated.



Kama Fyr
Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:28 PM


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The story of Ruddy Man is told in sermon 28, the number of the Drowned Lamp. What is this?
"UNDERSTAND THAT SITHISIT STILL TRAVELS IN A PHOSPHORESCENT MIRROR OF THE SKY DROWNED AND SMILING"
A lamp immersed in water would seem to be useless, unless the immersion is an illusion: a reflection of a lamp above.

Why is this important?
"An imitation of submersion is love's premonition."
"Why Love? Know Love to avoid the Landfall"

The Landfall is the failure to achieve Amaranth, but a necessary challenge on the path to achieving it.
"This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite."

What we know of the Landfall is that it was not the fall of the Ministry of Truth, but what does the Landfall threaten, if not the City?
"The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double."
"I build for you a city of swords, by which I mean laws that cut the people who live there into better shapes."
"This is the promise of the PSJJJJ: egg, image, man, god, city, state. I serve and am served. I am made of wire and string and mortar and I accede my own precedent, world without am."

The City in abstract is shown to be Amaranth. Let us posit the fall of the Ministry to be a lesser landfall. A toy. A myth-echo. Then perhaps Vivec the City is was a toy Amaranthine?

rottendeadite
Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:35 PM

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Hint #3 is a puzzler to me as well. I've been pacing around a lot and hoping my boss doesn't notice how little work I'm getting done. This is what I've come up with:

A dreaming Amaranth would leave Mundus in its rearview mirror. (oh look, TIL's drupal is FUBAR again. How helpful.) Therefore this Amaranth is either long gone or hasn't started dreaming yet. It's either here, or it isn't. This is not helpful to our search in any way and now I'm kinda sorry I wrote any of it. But at the same time, I can't imagine any way that an Amaranth who can dream, would chose not too.

"Nir" in Dragon Language is "Hunt." Kirkbride calls this a "good find," but that doesn't necessarily mean it's relevant. If it is, I can determine two things:

There is a connection here with Dragons.
There is a connection here with Hunts (of a non-specific kind).

And the worst part is, it may not even be terribly relevant, but just amusing. I can't imagine MK would've commented on it if it wasn't relevant, though. Geeze I'm doing a lot of second-guessing.

Nevertheless I feel like Nir is the closest we've gotten to this Amaranth. Can anyone make the numbers fit? I think, having just sat through the first block of commercials, that we're heading into the second round of Make It FIt.

29: Captive Sage. I dunno.
2: Enantiomorph. Sure. Anu & Padomay.
9: Missing. In this proposal: Nir.
2+9=11:The Number of the Master. In many numerology systems, addition is the same as production via copulation. Nir + Anu & Padomay resulted in the original 12 worlds. These worlds were then combined by Anu to form Nirn. Is Nirn, or the 12 worlds, the Master?
9-2=7: Sword at the Center. Padomay used a sword to destroy Nir's 12 Worlds. Additionally, he struck Anu through the chest (center) with (I assume) his sword.
9*2=18: The Egg, or Six Times the Wise. I'm not sure about this one. I don't know how multiplication works in numerology.
9/2=4.5: 4=The Corners of the House of Troubles and 5=The Corners of the World. Again, I'm still researching multiplication and division.




Voir le messageToesock, le 09 novembre 2012 - 19:48, dit :

Nope. file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif

On another note, I think I can solve the numbers.


I'm going to assume that one of the numbers represents Amaranth, purely because they will be of little help otherwise.

We already understand 2, 9, 29, and 11. So that leaves 7 and 18. The sword at the center, and the egg or six times the wise.

Number Seven: The Sword at the center.

In my personal opinion, this represents convention, death, mundus, and reaching heaven by violence.



We can see that the sword at the center is in opposition to the lover. The lover has no double, which is in opposition to the dualistic spiral-shaped unfolding of Creation. This seems like the prime law of nature, but it is not a tendency or a correlation, but "Dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars," i.e. the Magne-ge and Daedra. It relies on enantiomorph, betrayal, "The Codes of Mephala." It is ready for its grave.

The sword was Vivec's path, but he suggests another. "Moreover, I've left instructions for others to do the same, and look more pretty than I did doing it!..." Love, not betrayal. So let's look at the egg.


Number Eighteen: The Egg or Six Times the Wise.

Everyone probably thinks of Vivec when they read that. But is that what this represents? The cosmic egg is usually a real-world symbol of an infant universe. Vivec refers to the universe as egg-layered. It is indeed easy to think of it that way, the layers of subgradience nested within one another like a series of eggshells. We know Amaranth is the echo of the Mundus.

Okay, so what is six times the wise, then?

18 = 6 x 3.

Three is called The Wise because it is the number of the Tribunal: Mercy, Mystery, Mastery.

The tribunal follows the grand archetype that has been unfurling since the beginning. Almalexia, Mercy, is of course the female principal or Nir. Sotha Sil is our captive sage. Our mystery witness. Vivec represents dualism (poetry/murder, male/female). As such, he is the perfect figure to represent the enantiomorph.
So Mercy = female principle, Mystery = witness, mastery = enantiomorph.
Why 6, though?

The pattern above is the force that describes the subgradient pattern of the universe. Anu/Padomay combine and split into the Aurbis, The Aurbis gives us into Aetherius/Oblivion which combine and split into Nirn, etc. etc. So let's count the levels of subgradience listed in the loveletter.
1 - Void to Aurbis, Nought to Pattern
2 - Aurbis to Aetherius: Possibility to Maintenance by Time
3 - Aetherius to Oblivion: Creation to Destruction
4 - Oblivion to Mundus: Debris of all Possibility to Anchor of all things
5 - Mundus to Mortal Death: Centerpoint to the Soon Recycled
6 - Mortal Death to Z: Antinymic to [blah blah blah]

Tada! 6 times the wise is the sixth permutation of the mastery/mercy/mystery pattern. The sixth subgradient.

18 is amaranth.



Voir le messagerottendeadite, le 09 novembre 2012 - 20:13, dit :

(Warning: I use a lot of quotation marks here and it started to get on my nerves.  It will likely get on your nerves too).

On the whole, this post is taking me a while to work through.  There's a lot of strong stuff in it.  But a quick note about the quoted line above:

If you're quoting the Loveletter, Amaranth is the State Gradient Echo of Mundus Centerex, which is different from an "echo" of Mundus.  An "echo" often denotes (thematically) a lesser duplication of the original.  Similar, but not as "loud" or "pure," if you like.

A State Gradient Echo of Mundus Centerex is a picture of the "brain" of Mundus.  I used to interpret it as knowledge of the "programming" behind the way the physical sub-gradient works.  It could also mean a visualization of the "brain" that is dreaming Mundus: the Godhead.

Anyway this may or may not have been helpful to anyone, now that I think of it.

EDIT: Wait, maybe it does.  You understand the Godhead.  You see how it works, how it's put together, how the brain operates.  Therefore (probably) you can do it yourself.  You have the knowledge of how to dream your own reality.  But that doesn't mean you have to start right then and there.



rottendeadite
Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

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Melchior Dahrk, on 09 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:



The Hurling Disk confirmed as Amaranth






"18 less one (the victor)" The number 1 is the Nerevar in Sermon 11, and 11 is the Sharmat, Dagoth Ur. If the Nerevar is the Victor, then 18 less 1 is the Hurling Disc, and that creates a connection between Nerevar and the Hurling Disc.

Is it possible that, if Vivec is 18, "18 Less 1" is Nerevar without Vivec? The Nerevarine? Or more likely Vivec after Foul Murder, or Vivec without the Nerevar?



SithisLorkhan
Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:28 PM

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Neradac, on 09 November 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:



I always knew there was something to 18.http://www.uesp.net/...ivec,_Sermon_18

Why? The ending of the words is ALMSIVI, except 18. The ending of the world is ALMSIVI.



Also the fact it states that "This Sermon is untrue."



rottendeadite
Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:38 PM


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SithisLorkhan, on 09 November 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

Also the fact it states that "This Sermon is untrue."


I'd always kinda thought that was a note placed there by someone in the Temple, because it also says "this sermon is forbidden." So I was thinking because Vivec expressed doubt, the Tribunal Temple was suppressing that Lesson.

Could have a double-meaning, though. Hmmm...

Oh also: from Sermon 18:




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Ayem said, 'Out of nine you will find only eight, though they be mighty. The last is already destroyed by your decision to create the Book of Hours.'
Who is the last, missing member of Vivec's Nine Sons?

Nerevar.




Voir le messageToesock, le 09 novembre 2012 - 21:00, dit :

Okay guys, don't go crazy.

18 isn't the hurling disk. That's 17, the middle dawn.

Let's try to think on more cosmological terms. I don't think the answer is going to be one of the major characters/heroes of the games. We've exhausted those possibilities over and over again.

It might be interesting to think about what the (+1) that differentiates 18 from middle dawn is, though. There's an 8&1, the sum of which is 9 connection, the meaning of which should be obvious. file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gifBut perhaps that is neither here nor there.


rottendeadite
Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

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Toesock, on 09 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Is Nirni the same as Nir though? Nirni seems to be the embodiment of Nirn, while Nir is the interaction of Anu and Padomay that gives birth to the Twelve Worlds of Creation that came before Nirn.



I've been trying to make Nir fit, but it doesn't work so well. She's a creation, not a witness.

Padomay witnesses Nir and Anu's horizontal mambo, though, and he retreats in bitterness. In the end, Anu, Padomay and Nir all end up being "wounded" in one way or another. Anu & Padomay both end up "outside" time at the end, and Nir ends up as close to dead as those beings can get. The Witness cannot be part of the Enantiomorphic Creation, I think, so that puts us back to Padomay, which might also mean Sithis.

As far as numbers go...

2: Anu & Nir.
9: The Witness, Padomay.
11: The Number of the Master. This could mean Anu & Nir & Padomay, the original Gods of creation, and thus "Masters," but this feels sketchy, so I might be thinking about it wrong.
7: The Sword at the Center. The Witness without Anu & Nir? The Sword being the weapon Padomay wielded in anger against his brother and his wife...?
18 & 4.5: I don't know.

Thoughts?


I still suspect (strongly) that the Captive Sage or Witness could well be something "hidden" by the Leaper Demon King from the last kalpa, who maybe watched all this happening. But again, the only entities I know of who survived the last Eating were some of the Daedra (specifically: Mehrunes Dagon), and of course Umaril's Father.



Voir le messageToesock, le 09 novembre 2012 - 23:12, dit :

I've always thought that the Kalpa system brought us back to the Dawn era rather than all the way back to Anu/Padomay.

I can't agree with you on Padomay as the Witness. He's part of the enantiomorph along with Anu. They need a third party to witness them. I don't think it's Nir either. She has a role already as the female principle. This is my guess:

29 - the witness
2 - anu/padomay
9 - Nir?
7 - Subgradience/Violence/Enantiomorph
18 - Love/Cosmos/The Amaranth



Merari
Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:30 PM

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Kama Fyr, on 09 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

The story of Ruddy Man is told in sermon 28, the number of the Drowned Lamp. What is this?
"UNDERSTAND THAT SITHISIT STILL TRAVELS IN A PHOSPHORESCENT MIRROR OF THE SKY DROWNED AND SMILING"
A lamp immersed in water would seem to be useless, unless the immersion is an illusion: a reflection of a lamp above.

Why is this important?
"An imitation of submersion is love's premonition."
"Why Love? Know Love to avoid the Landfall"

The Landfall is the failure to achieve Amaranth, but a necessary challenge on the path to achieving it.
"This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite."

What we know of the Landfall is that it was not the fall of the Ministry of Truth, but what does the Landfall threaten, if not the City?
"The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double."
"I build for you a city of swords, by which I mean laws that cut the people who live there into better shapes."
"This is the promise of the PSJJJJ: egg, image, man, god, city, state. I serve and am served. I am made of wire and string and mortar and I accede my own precedent, world without am."

The City in abstract is shown to be Amaranth. Let us posit the fall of the Ministry to be a lesser landfall. A toy. A myth-echo. Then perhaps Vivec the City is was a toy Amaranthine?




The fall of the city is landfall. The failure of a city to hatch into state, in this context an attempt and failure at ascenscion, at ungradience.
Egg, image, man, god, city, state.
Each of these should be seen as symbolic as well as literal, as transcending the base meaning of the word and applying it to enlightenment.
Is the Landfall a reference to Vivec's failure to achieve amaranth?
Did Vivec go from Egg to Image to Man to God to City, only to at the last step, fall?
Is the Loveletter a manual to prevent this?


Merari
Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

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Adanorcil, on 09 November 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

I can tell you you're probably misreading that. I can't immediately dig up the quote, but it's been confirmed that Landfall is to be understood as its dictionary definition, i.e. the reaching of land after a sea voyage or flight, also said of storms when they cross onto land.




Kama Fyr seems to see another dimension or maybe the two do not have to oppose.
Landfall implies to me a crash-landing, what happens when amaranth fails and the dream-shards fall back to a lower state of mythic gradience? Landfall is not implied to be a joyous occasion, not a new swarming of before undiscovered lands, rather a tragedy, a make-do.

On numerology, the same mysterious Kama Fyr to whom I owe my signature, I never asked if I could use and so usurped it even, posted on this rhyme about Peryite, on the original Boethiah Summoning Day thread:

"Prepare the bones of the missing to
Each and every day until the last
Refill the heart signified by the glyph
Y, numbered seven, that times the wise
Is the cross in the Serpent's skin
Twice again the number of the master
Entering the invisible gate that others flee.

Lest the above be thought adventitious,
13
9
7
16 -> 12 -> 379
3 + 4 = 7 -> 39, /3 = 13 -> 36, /3 = 12, /3 = 4 -> 242
3 -> 112, + 242 = 354 <- 22
9 -> 11, x 2 = 22, /2 = 11 ...
17 11 9

I operate on a timetable that spans years.

Also, the Treasure Wood should enter into this.
Edited by Kama Fyr, 03 November 2011 - 10:44 PM."

I dont know if its wise to disregard this poster.
I always thought secretly that Kama Fyr was a more poetic, more earthly, mystical way of saying in essence Omega Fyr (which I envision to be the culmination of Divayth's work), a name which would have far too much hardness, ratio, associated with it.
Please correct me if Im wrong (Kama).

There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#7 Griscendré

Griscendré

Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 21:06

Punaise même la métaphysique chrétienne (que j'aime beaucoup d'ailleurs) n'est pas aussi compliquer... Tu dis que Nir est pas l'Amaranth, et que celui ci est "l'Observateur", ça veut dire que l'Amaranth est une entité, pas un endroit, ah... d'accord...

#8 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 21:17

Voir le messageGriscendré, le 12 novembre 2012 - 21:06, dit :

Punaise même la métaphysique chrétienne (que j'aime beaucoup d'ailleurs) n'est pas aussi compliquer... Tu dis que Nir est pas l'Amaranth, et que celui ci est "l'Observateur", ça veut dire que l'Amaranth est une entité, pas un endroit, ah... d'accord...

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No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

(Toesock, sorry you took offense at the description of the demise of Barfok.)

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.

C'est encore pire ; c'est un être ou une idée. et en plus :

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The City in abstract is shown to be Amaranth.

Et ça fait recommencer à lire les sermons et à regarder la numérologie Sénovélinienne et "réelle" (ainsi que l’Écriture Sainte des Nombres) à propos de

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29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.

Ainsi que relire tout cela (j'aime particulièrement le prophète du Landfall, surtout depuis ce que Kama Fyr a dis sur la relation Lanfall/Amaranth)

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He has come down from the mountains, the chitin of his belly segments freshly painted in Faith. The suns shine overhead, each uttering his name in their way. The barrens before him distort in the blur of their heat as he climbs the last hill, but his vision is clear. It always has been. His fifth and second arms encircle his staff as his mandibles click out a small prayer. Beyond the barrens lay the Crescent of the Eighty and One Thrones, and all the villages that hang from it like a jeweled belt. They do not know it yet, those millions that work, rule, and commit their countless sins out there in the cradle of all written history, but he will save them. In ones and twos, then in droves, and then their own priests and their own kings will throw down their false idols and take up the New Faith. He would permit himself some pride if that emotion occurred to him; instead, he tests his locust wings on the wind, permitting himself to glide into the first steps of Salvation.

Pour ce qui est du "style biblique", c'est le Remanada qui a été cité dans le thread sur l'Amaranth comme s'en rapprochant le plus.
There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#9 Griscendré

Griscendré

Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 21:58

Le problème c'est que je suis pas bilangue xD la traduction de "La République de Hahd" à était harassante pour moi.

#10 Arctus Rhem

Arctus Rhem

Posté 14 novembre 2012 - 14:19

En parlant de la mort volontaire/pas volontaire de Nir, ça m'a rappelé la mort très étrange de Sotha Sil.

Bon, c'était pas vraiment un dieu, mais est-ce possible qu'il ait pu atteindre l'Amaranth ?

#11 fabinou87

fabinou87

Posté 14 novembre 2012 - 14:35

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Bon, c'était pas vraiment un dieu

TU VAS TE FAIRE TAPER SUR LES DOIGTS PAR SIFRAEL !

#12 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 14 novembre 2012 - 17:21

Voir le messagefabinou87, le 14 novembre 2012 - 14:35, dit :

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Bon, c'était pas vraiment un dieu

TU VAS TE FAIRE TAPER SUR LES DOIGTS PAR SIFRAEL !

Ben... Pourquoi ? Le propre des TES, c'est que le seul truc qu'on pourrait réellement appeler un Dieu, le Godhead, est par définition impossible à rejoindre. Donc Sil n'est pas vraiment un Dieu.

Et sinon... Sotha Sil a été proposé, mais surtout car il était l'Observateur de l'énantiomorphe Nérévar/Vehk Mortel. Mais ensuite, il n'a pas été réellement lié au reste (alors que les Dwemers et Mnemoli vont pile-poil).
Ici, Toesock assimile Sotha Sil au témoin demandé (witnessing shield-thane...) mais va plus loin en disant que c'est l'idée de l'énantiomorphe+observateur+principe féminin, c'est à dire 18, qui serait l'Amaranth. Mais après, pourquoi 18 serait devenu le rêveur/Godhead d'un autre monde...

Voir le messageToesock, le 09 novembre 2012 - 19:48, dit :

Nope. file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif

On another note, I think I can solve the numbers.


I'm going to assume that one of the numbers represents Amaranth, purely because they will be of little help otherwise.

We already understand 2, 9, 29, and 11. So that leaves 7 and 18. The sword at the center, and the egg or six times the wise.

Number Seven: The Sword at the center.

In my personal opinion, this represents convention, death, mundus, and reaching heaven by violence.



We can see that the sword at the center is in opposition to the lover. The lover has no double, which is in opposition to the dualistic spiral-shaped unfolding of Creation. This seems like the prime law of nature, but it is not a tendency or a correlation, but "Dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars," i.e. the Magne-ge and Daedra. It relies on enantiomorph, betrayal, "The Codes of Mephala." It is ready for its grave.

The sword was Vivec's path, but he suggests another. "Moreover, I've left instructions for others to do the same, and look more pretty than I did doing it!..." Love, not betrayal. So let's look at the egg.


Number Eighteen: The Egg or Six Times the Wise.

Everyone probably thinks of Vivec when they read that. But is that what this represents? The cosmic egg is usually a real-world symbol of an infant universe. Vivec refers to the universe as egg-layered. It is indeed easy to think of it that way, the layers of subgradience nested within one another like a series of eggshells. We know Amaranth is the echo of the Mundus.

Okay, so what is six times the wise, then?

18 = 6 x 3.

Three is called The Wise because it is the number of the Tribunal: Mercy, Mystery, Mastery.

The tribunal follows the grand archetype that has been unfurling since the beginning. Almalexia, Mercy, is of course the female principal or Nir. Sotha Sil is our captive sage. Our mystery witness. Vivec represents dualism (poetry/murder, male/female). As such, he is the perfect figure to represent the enantiomorph.
So Mercy = female principle, Mystery = witness, mastery = enantiomorph.
Why 6, though?

The pattern above is the force that describes the subgradient pattern of the universe. Anu/Padomay combine and split into the Aurbis, The Aurbis gives us into Aetherius/Oblivion which combine and split into Nirn, etc. etc. So let's count the levels of subgradience listed in the loveletter.
1 - Void to Aurbis, Nought to Pattern
2 - Aurbis to Aetherius: Possibility to Maintenance by Time
3 - Aetherius to Oblivion: Creation to Destruction
4 - Oblivion to Mundus: Debris of all Possibility to Anchor of all things
5 - Mundus to Mortal Death: Centerpoint to the Soon Recycled
6 - Mortal Death to Z: Antinymic to [blah blah blah]

Tada! 6 times the wise is the sixth permutation of the mastery/mercy/mystery pattern. The sixth subgradient.

18 is amaranth.

There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#13 fabinou87

fabinou87

Posté 14 novembre 2012 - 19:19

Je t'ai lu dans un autre sujet expliquer que Vivec (et ses comparses il me semble) est/sont de vrais dieux.

Sinon je trouve la suite de ton post géniale, l'explication des nombres est brillante.

Selon vous qu'est ce que cela nous apprend sur l'Amaranth ?

Modifié par fabinou87, 14 novembre 2012 - 19:25.


#14 Griscendré

Griscendré

Posté 14 novembre 2012 - 20:22

18 = amaranth = Sotha Sil.

#15 fabinou87

fabinou87

Posté 15 novembre 2012 - 19:41

J'ai plutôt l'impression que l'Amaranth c'est la somme du concept de 3(M/M/M ou encore Principe Féminim/Observateur/Enantiomorphe) aux 6 étapes de création/évolution/subgradience que l'on connait

#16 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 20:13

Voir le messagefabinou87, le 15 novembre 2012 - 19:41, dit :

J'ai plutôt l'impression que l'Amaranth c'est la somme du concept de 3(M/M/M ou encore Principe Féminim/Observateur/Enantiomorphe) aux 6 étapes de création/évolution/subgradience que l'on connait

Oui, ce serait plutôt ça. Si vous lisez l'anglais, il y a un post récapitulatif:

Voir le messageToesock, le 16 novembre 2012 - 22:03, dit :

Ugly links, but potentially helpful in orienting oneself?

This is meant to be a basic introduction to this rather unwieldy thread chain. We are on a mission to hunt down the one person/place/idea in TES that has achieved the state of enlightenment known as Amaranth. If you aren't sure what Amaranth is, read Loveletter to the Fifth Era located here: http://www.imperial-...purpose-tamriel
For more contemplation, read the first few of these threads, where we discuss it ad nausium.

History of the Thread:
Spoiler

The Threads:

Index of Mk's Clues:
Spoiler

The Theories So Far (I've only linked ones that were posted with some evidence or sparked some discussion):

Spoiler

The Missing Witness:
During the hunt, someone brought up the missing witness of the Anu/Padomay enantiomorph: http://forums.bethso...st__p__21728907
And it was apparently very close: http://forums.bethso...st__p__21729109
Spoiler

At that point, the Hunt for the Amaranth became a hunt for the Witness...We tend to agree that there is a strong connection to the Elder Scrolls, and the Numbers.

The Numbers:
Spoiler



Also discussed:

The city as a symbol of Amaranth - http://forums.bethso...st__p__21773088
The Middle Dawn having some relation to Amaranth - http://forums.bethso...st__p__21803602

(If there is anything you want added, shoot me a link and I'll edit it in)

Une fois que vous aurez fini, je pense que vous ne saurez toujours pas qui est l'Amaranth, mais au moins vous aurez les idées plus claires dessus.
There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#17 fabinou87

fabinou87

Posté 19 novembre 2012 - 00:51

Et toi Sifrael, qu'elle est ton idée/intuition sur le sujet ?

#18 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 19 novembre 2012 - 19:51

Voir le messagefabinou87, le 19 novembre 2012 - 00:51, dit :

Et toi Sifrael, qu'elle est ton idée/intuition sur le sujet ?
Que je suis pas capable de sortir un truc cohérent dessus.
Les gens qui s'y intéressent essayent d'appliquer la mécanique quantique au panthéon des Magne-Ge pour avoir des informations dessus, connaissent par coeur les 36 sermons et trouvent des relations métaphysiques entre les nombres, ou bien ont une connaissance encyclopédique du lore, des interventions (même oubliées par tout le monde) de MK, et des Monkey Truth.

je suis pas de taille là dedans, si ce n'est pour de temps en temps essayer de faire un lien avec un nouveau texte, et me faire démontrer par (Vehk+Talos)*Amaranth=rétroviseur que ça ne sera pas utile.


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We haven't seen a fleshed-out alternative to CHIM to support something more preferable, but I promised a long while back to provide one. We'll see.
I will say that, CHIM or not, there is no evidence that either Talos nor Vehk achieved Amaranth. If they did, Tamriel would be in their rearview mirror. The Amaranth deserves its own topic, really. Its core concept is the most divisive among the mystics, in my opinion.


Bon, sinon mon opinion, c'est que bien que les dwemers/Numidium aient tout pour aller, il est bien dit dans la Loveletter que c'est le Nouvel Homme qui devient l'Amaranth.
Et bien que Mnemoli semble bien aller, on a vraiment trop peu d'infos dessus.
There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#19 fabinou87

fabinou87

Posté 22 novembre 2012 - 00:27

"Le Nouvel Homme devient Dieu devient Amaranth, hypnagogique éternel. Les hallucinations deviennent lucides sous Ses yeux et alors, comme tous les parents, l'Amaranth chérit et adore tout ce qui provient de Lui." Lettre d'amour de la Cinquième Ere

Bordel moi je pensais que la question posée était de savoir ce qu'était éxactement l'Amaranth, qu'en fait c'était un concept qu'on ne maîtrisait pas complètement, qu'on avait un doute sur sa nature.
Je pense que je me trompais puisque la réponse est plutôt claire ( :) ), l'Amaranth c'est l'état d'être soi même rêveur d'un monde non ?

La question en fait c'est plutôt de savoir qui l'a atteint ? Bizarrement le fait qu'on ne cite que des personnages ne m'a pas mis sur la voie, je dois être idiot des fois ...
Dans ce cas là je ne vois vraiment pas ce que vient faire le 18 dans tout ca ? ...

#20 Shadow she-wolf

Shadow she-wolf

    Le katana de la GBT


Posté 03 décembre 2012 - 20:33

Je vais peut-être dire une grosse grosse bêtise car je suis loin d'avoir suivit tout le sujet, juste vaguement survolé par le biais de ce sujet...

Voir le messageSifraël, le 03 décembre 2012 - 19:43, dit :

Intéressant, ça : on connait peu d'Ehlnofeys et "d'Os de la terre bruts", mais Y'ffre fait partie de ces quelques-uns. Et même s'il est peu probable que l'un d'eux soit l'Amaranth, il peut exister un lien (à moins que ce ne soit encore les scénaristes qui délirent)

Os de la terre, figure féminine, étoile, liée à Mnémoli...
Méridia...? Voire Merid, sa version antérieure...

#21 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 03 décembre 2012 - 21:27

"Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)

Meridia en Shield-Thane mutilée, à la limite (transformée en daedroth) mais ça ne va pas dès qu'on regarde le contexte : Méridia en Os de la terre c'est difficile (déjà, magne Ge et Daedroth c'est beaucoup), mais si on rajoute que l'Amaranth soit être au niveau d'Anu/Padomay, ça passe moyen...

En plus, les indices cachés :
The Captive Sage
The Enantiomorph
The Missing.
The Number of the Master.
The Sword at the Center
The Egg, or Six Times the Wise.
The point between The Corners of House of Troubles and The Corners of the World.

C'est plus difficile ; et Méridia n'est pas mentionnée dans les sermons (en tout cas, je ne m'en souviens pas). Quand à Merid, si l'idée que le panthéon décrit un autre kalpa, ça irait bien, car on a justement cherché les dieux d'un autre kalpa qui ont disparu depuis, et il n'y avait que Lyg (Lorkhan ?) et le dieu rivière.



Ensuite, on a quand même Sep qui est mentionné dans le Panthéon, le Scrab-Framer, et d'autres trucs bizarres ; à mon avis, ce texte recèle plus ou moins la clé de l'Amaranth, mais il faut réussir à le lire en faisant tous les rapprochements nécessaires (par exemple, une référence à Mnemoli et une voie de marche, et c'est gagné)

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Mnethm (K Sign) – Mnethm is the Fortified K, the fount of inspiration. Why her temples are found mostly underground is a riddle for the Sep Thing. Mnethm governs the domain of motivation, especially in engineering and scientific discovery. In this role, she finds herself regularly contested by the Thermal Spirit, who would halt all ideas of Progress, and Clan Box, who manically scrutinizes Mnethm’s inventions for any potential buzz-kill to the Magne-Ge’s effervescent frolicking.
Mnumbrial (Y Sign) – Mnumbrial was once revered as the mightiest of the Y-spec Spirits. Then her issue, the Dawns, succumbed to the Critic Mark, a curse of Nana Null that has yet to be lifted. The Untime Folk still propitiate Mnumbrial, depicting her as a gigantic Mother Dawn holding an urn of endless M that feeds into any nearby sliver, wake, or dream. The Wise say that this M is a symbol of the loss Mnumbrial feels for failing her children… and a perhaps even as a path to curing them.
Mnender-Foil (Y Sign) – These days, Mnender-Foil the Amazing is more renowned than his truly-divine mother, Mnumbrial. In truth, the mighty Mnender-Foil is oft-regarded as only a demimemberdress of pop culture importance, an image thread in tapestries and way posts. Some say, however, Mnender-Foil will come as a herald of terrible and hopeful aspect, roaring in the return of the Dawns in proper, all of them rid forever of the Critic Mark.

Le Mn est proche, mais aucun lien avec les WW. Alors que le Scarab  :

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Scarab-Framer (Y Sign) - Before the Breaking, Scarab-Framer was an Alchemist of great Merid Who Held the Whole of the Blackblock Under Her Hood. Since untime immemorial, it was Scarab-Framer that not only set into motion the growth of M-Nulls but also their prosperity. He is the Fore-Dawn and watcher of the Y. That their resiliency has been tampered with since the Blur is a curse that has vexed his mind into near-immobility. If Scarab-Framer could achieve the insight that escapes him still, the Y might repopulate itself, free of all evil.

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Le Scarabée qui s'est Transformé en Nouvel Homme.[...]Le Nouvel Homme devient Dieu devient Amaranth, hypnagogique éternel. Les hallucinations deviennent lucides sous Ses yeux et alors, comme tous les parents, l'Amaranth chérit et adore tout ce qui provient de Lui.

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"The Prophet of Landfall," a birthday gift for Kurt Kuhlmann:
He has come down from the mountains, the chitin of his belly segments freshly painted in Faith. The suns shine overhead, each uttering his name in their way. The barrens before him distort in the blur of their heat as he climbs the last hill, but his vision is clear. It always has been. His fifth and second arms encircle his staff as his mandibles click out a small prayer. Beyond the barrens lay the Crescent of the Eighty and One Thrones, and all the villages that hang from it like a jeweled belt. They do not know it yet, those millions that work, rule, and commit their countless sins out there in the cradle of all written history, but he will save them. In ones and twos, then in droves, and then their own priests and their own kings will throw down their false idols and take up the New Faith. He would permit himself some pride if that emotion occurred to him; instead, he tests his locust wings on the wind, permitting himself to glide into the first steps of Salvation.


Sachant que Kama Fyr lie le landfall et l'Amaranth...



Je pense que si je ne m'étais pas fait remballé lorsque j'ai mentionné des bribes de tout cela sur le topic "Hunt the Amaranth", j'en aurais déjà parlé. Là, j'attends d'avoir toutes les données nécessaire sur lui et/ou Mnemoli (car les dwemers ne me paraissent pas convenir) pour l'envoyer.

Si quelqu'un arrive à faire 473 avec 29, 2, 9, 11, 7, 18 et 4.5, qu'il le dise... J'ai de plus en plus de mal à croire au hasard avec MK, donc si c'est possible, c'est voulu.
There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.

#22 Garyy

Garyy

Posté 10 décembre 2012 - 21:07

((29-9+4.5+2)*18)-11+7=473

Modifié par Garyy, 10 décembre 2012 - 21:09.


#23 Arctus Rhem

Arctus Rhem

Posté 11 décembre 2012 - 01:13

((18+11)*7+9)+(29*(2*4.5))=473

(11-(18/9)+7)*29+(2*4.5)=473

(18/(11-9)+7)*29+(2*4.5)=473

((18+11)*9)+29*7+(2*4.5)=473

(18*11+9)+(29+(2*4.5))*7=473

(18+11)*7+(29*9+(2*4.5)=473

etc...

Y a trop de solutions possibles, et j'ai regardé qu'avec "(2*4.5)", parce qu'avec "(18*4.5)", on sait faire encore une ribambelle d'autres équations.

Le problème c'est que les nombres donnés tourne trop autour du chiffre 9 qui est le plus maniable. Je vois pas en quoi ça peut nous servir à trouver l'amaranth...

#24 Garyy

Garyy

Posté 11 décembre 2012 - 18:15

Voir le messageArctus Rhem, le 11 décembre 2012 - 01:13, dit :

((18+11)*7+9)+(29*(2*4.5))=473

(11-(18/9)+7)*29+(2*4.5)=473

(18/(11-9)+7)*29+(2*4.5)=473

((18+11)*9)+29*7+(2*4.5)=473

(18*11+9)+(29+(2*4.5))*7=473

(18+11)*7+(29*9+(2*4.5)=473

etc...

Y a trop de solutions possibles, et j'ai regardé qu'avec "(2*4.5)", parce qu'avec "(18*4.5)", on sait faire encore une ribambelle d'autres équations.

Le problème c'est que les nombres donnés tourne trop autour du chiffre 9 qui est le plus maniable. Je vois pas en quoi ça peut nous servir à trouver l'amaranth...

A vrai dire , ça sert si tu regarde ça(http://www.imperial-...mon-twenty-nine) je penses, les nombres sont associés à des concepts et des personnes, l’interprétation n'est pas mon domaine mais entre les chiffre comme tu l'a dit tout tourne autour du chiffre 9, par extension 18 et par extension 81 avec ça des tonnes de liens peuvent être trouver , certains sont surement une partie de l'énigme..

Par exemple avec ces nombre on trouve :

(29*9)-(2*4,5)-11+7= 266 ce qui correspond au walking ways.

2+7+9+11=29 hors Mk dit que le 4.5 "chamboule" tout ça montre bien "l'équilibre" existant entre ces nombre si l'ont exclu ce fameux 4,5.

18*2= 36 , nombre de sermons de vivec.
2*9=18
11+7=18
18*4,5= 81
9/2=4,5
18*2=36
.... et des millions d'autres..

bref une chose est sure ça n'a pas été fait par hasard.
..comme le dit Sifraël , les coïncidences lorsqu'il s'agit de MK ça n'existe pas.

Modifié par Garyy, 11 décembre 2012 - 18:17.


#25 Sifraël

Sifraël

    Mk II


Posté 11 décembre 2012 - 18:42

Ca sert à ça.

Et s'il y a une "logique" derrière une des formules, c'est tout bon.


Signification des nombres :

Citation

29 = 2 + 9 =11 + 7 = 18.
Lets put this together.

The Captive Sage = The Enantiomorph + The Missing = The Number of the Master + The Sword at the Center = The Egg, or Six Times the Wise.
With the point between The Corners of House of Troubles and The Corners of the World.

La meilleure analyse actuelle, c'est ça :

Citation

(2) Lorkhan + (9) Akatosh = (11) The Master, the Amaranth (maybe).
(2) Lorkhan - (9) Akatosh = (7) The Sword at the Center, the removal of divinity, estrangement from statesmanship.
Hah! The product of (2) Lorkhan * (9) Akatosh = (18) The Egg, and by extension Nirn and the egg-shaped entirety of existence. It's what you get when you combine the two together, when Lorkhan binds and blinds Akatosh, the Captive Sage.

Still can't get my head around Division. Akatosh / Lorkhan = The Corners of the House of Troubles and possibly also the Five Corners of the World?

Citation


That's wonderful, Rottendeadite!

Take a look at this anuadic multiplication:
(2) Anu-Padomay * (9) Aka-as-Witness = (18) Nir-the-World-Egg.
It makes sense in context.

Addition (with these figures) leads to a triade similar to Talos.
Subtraction's interpreatation is way out of my league.
Division - two primordial forces being divided by a third (Witness, Time, etc.) - accentuation [in history through Anu- or Padomay-aligned characters?].

Four Corners are special, as we've seen: they've undergone a change in alignment.

Elle se base sur Akatosh = l'Amaranth, ce qui ne me plait pas (n'a pas disparu, reste dans le Godhead, n'est pas passé par la mort mortelle) mais je préfère ce point de vue à celui Dwemer (il est bien dit qu'ils ont échoué) voire Mnemoli (trop obscure, même si...)
There is a space where I live that disagrees with every one of your points- there are good memories that can stay unspoken, stress can be left at the door in the name of civility, in the name of he-is-leaving, that heroic large-love mega-sex is the point of living, anyway; that some scenes don’t play according to script but according to the laws of closure, and that, finally, there was nothing criminal in what we had except for the lamentable lack of sustainability.
***
Vehk and Vehk happy birthday to his love Michael.





Aussi étiqueté avec lore, Amaranth, maux de tête

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