À La Chasse À L'Amaranth, La Marante Mara Ment.

Volume IV. Only half a thread left before things get messed up.

One
Two
Three
Go.

Here we go again.

Accumulated Kirkbride Klues:


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No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

(Toesock, sorry you took offense at the description of the demise of Barfok.)

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.

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It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.

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It's right strange that Nir is only mentioned once, innit now?

Closer.

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"Funny that "Nir" in dragon-talk is "hunt"."

Great find.

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Do you know who else is missing?

"Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)
*Seek and you shall find. I hid it."
Closer and closer.

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29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.

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Off to bed, but it's a locked room mystery.

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Quick rundown:

1) A person, place, or thing has achieved Amaranth, the New Existence

2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth

3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?

4) Whoa, the cops are coming again

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"So Amaranth is not the Dreamer, is that confirmation?"

Not that Dreamer, no. The Amaranth has jumped past Tamriel, as in the purpose of the Loveletter.

No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

(Toesock, sorry you took offense at the description of the demise of Barfok.)

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.

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It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.

I'll say this: it won't feel like a letdown once you find it.

Alright. Liberty comes closest to what I'm thinking of. And I have named it freedom. This Amaranth must have made itself known prior to the creation of the mortal world, if it necessitates the allowance of your dreams to dream, and since that's the one time it would have happened without us realizing it. Looking at the creation myths, prior to Lorkhan/Akatosh, who are too obvious, we have the Anu-Padhome diad. And Nir. One single mention of Nir, who gave birth to everything, catalyst to all existence, who then allows herself to die and be relegated to some abstract Female Principle. Acted upon, sure, but also the lead role without whom we would have nothing.

It's right strange that Nir is only mentioned once, innit now?

Closer.

Because the other thread has exceeded the post limit and this topic deserves its own.


And what fun this is! I love a good scavenge. Let's enumerate the previous thread's suspects.

The Allessian "One"
Godhead
Dreamsleeve
Dagoth Ur
Mankar Camoran
Language
Peryite
Numidium
Love
Mnemoli
Hun'Ding
Player Characters
Cyrus
Sotha Sil
Anu
Alandro Sul
Allessia
Nerevar
Auriel
Magnus
Hist
Nu Mantia
Nirn
M'aiq the Liar

It's someone we know, someone or something that has appeared in the official games, even. It "won't feel like a letdown." Some say that it must be mortal. Is it a person or an idea? Both? Whom do we know who is known for sleeping? For dreaming? For being in another state of consciousness?

Break out the heavy books, I think (and rather hope) it's going to be a long night.

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Great find.

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Closer and closer.

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The "you're this close but I'm not telling you" face he's making as he types this is absolutely adorable.

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I love it when you people work together.

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MK says that Ada-Mantia is a Scrollcase.

The Scrolls are Towers.

"The presence of deaf witness, this is what the numbers are. They hang onto the Aurbis as the last nostalgia of their godhood." The 29th.


These numbers, these concepts that make up the world, bear witness to what made them.

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Two, One, and Seven Et'Ada created Mundus.

Two gods in the Enantiomorph (Akatosh, Lorkhan).
One Observer (Magnus).
Seven Aedra outside of the Enantiomorph (Zenithar, Stendarr, Dibella, Mara, Kynareth, Arkay, Julianos)

29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.

Don't forget the Sword at the Center. He edit'd that in.


The Captive Sage
The Enantiomorph
The Missing
The Sword at the Center
The Egg, or Six times the Wise
Something about the Corners, which gets messed up.

29
68
11
39
18
Something messed up with 242 or 100?

Toesock, on 02 November 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

It's Kirkbridian math:

29 = 2 + 9 =11 + 7 = 18.
Lets put this together.

The Captive Sage = The Enantiomorph + The Missing = The Number of the Master + The Sword at the Center = The Egg, or Six Times the Wise.
With the point between The Corners of House of Troubles and The Corners of the World.

Are you trollin'?

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To hunt is to kill something for nourishment. The opposite would be to kill yourself to feed others. Sacrifice.

Off to bed, but it's a locked room mystery.

It has to be something at the Anu-Padhome-Nir level. Something big, not subgradient.

The Amaranth is what allows for the existence of all this creation business.
It is whoever else was present at that enantiomorphic moment. This is what gets me - someone lost or so obvious I'm looking straight past.
His identity is in the numbers, I think, though it beats me how.

Quick rundown:


1) A person, place, or thing has achieved Amaranth, the New Existence

2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth

3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?

4) Whoa, the cops are coming again

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Not that Dreamer, no. The Amaranth has jumped past Tamriel, as in the purpose of the Loveletter.

Lets try and squeeze some info out of the numbers.

The "captive sage" consists of the enantiomorph and the missing (the missing the witness I presume)

The sum of the enantiomorph and missing witness is "the number of the master" (i.e. 1 and 1, sharmat and hortator, possibly another representation of enantiomorph) 11 is considered a "master number" in numerology as well. http://www.tokenrock...ter_numbers.php

The number of the master, 1+1=11, combined with the sword at the center (amaranth?) = the egg or six times the wise (I'm thinking about vivec's egg, or argonian egg-cracking)

The next number is 4.5, halfway between aedra and daedra, the egg divided by four.

Others have submitted the Sermon of Numbers and speculation regarding the blinding and maddening effects of the Elder Scrolls.

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Probably not. Lady N and the Elk have expressed disapproval of taking the Summoning Day Letters seriously, so unless they're playing a very cunning game of subterfuge, it's probably unrelated.

Ok, the egg or six times the wise is probably Vivec - 3x6=18 (and 3&6 make 36!)

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Sword in the center - found in the scripture of love:

The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened. Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality are ancient ideas ready for their graves, or at least the essence of such. This scripture is directly ordered by the codes of Mephala, the origin of sex and murder, defeated only by those who take up those ideas without my intervention. The religious elite is not a tendency or a correlation. They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto. This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite.”

I find that difficult to interpret.

There is a part of the Loveletter that deals with that paragraph:


We begin to see the first inkling of emergence, which by its nature requires the merging of two-fold powers. Inevitably, this leads to another gradient, but this time by forceful process: the Trap of the Lunar God. The Aedra are Named at this time, having lent their hands to what was to be the arena of the eternally impossible: Mundus, or Exactness.
Oblivion to Mundus: debris of all possibility to anchor of all things.

Actually, that possibly refers to the creation of the world and the deaths that were necessary to bring it into being.

Also, perhaps 4.5, halfway between the corners of creation and the troubles, represents the new universe.

Merry Eyesore the Elk, on 01 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.

Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel said:

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death.
...
The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.
...
The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic.

Merry Eyesore the Elk, on 01 November 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.

Sermon Twenty-Nine said:

30. The Scarab. 10

Merry Eyesore the Elk, on 02 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth

3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?

Magne-Ge Pantheon said:

He is the Fore-Dawn and watcher of the Y. That their resiliency has been tampered with since the Blur is a curse that has vexed his mind into near-immobility. If Scarab-Framer could achieve the insight that escapes him still, the Y might repopulate itself, free of all evil.

Mythic Dawn Commentaries, vol. 3 said:

By the Book, take this key and pierce the divine shell that encloses the mantle-takers! The skin of gold! SCARAB AE AURBEX!

Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel said:

Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.

The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Ten said:

'The eyelid of the kingdom shall fill thirty and six folios, but the eye shall read the world.'
...

We pledge ourselves to you, the Frame-maker, the Scarab: a world for us to love you in, a cloak of dirt to cherish. Betrayed by your ancestors when you were not even looking.

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Probably not, but I feel like we're running low on ideas here.That crossed my mind as well, but Azura wouldn't really fit the bill. Then I wondered about "Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets", but that would be highly lame nor is it really named.

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The moons are the corpse of Lorkhan. They came into being after his death at convention. They couldn't be the original witness.

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Lady Nerevar said it was "accidentally important"...

I believe the wise refers to the tribunal, ie 3. 3 time 6 is 18, which is the number for that sentence.

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He's just playing around with 29.
2 and 9 come from splitting it up.
11 is from adding 2 and 9.
7 is from subtracting 2 from 9.
18 is from multiplying 2 and 9.
4.5 is from dividing 2 into 9.

But man, that Peryite takes the lead as the king god this time? I knew there was a reason he was depicted as a dragon but this?



As for the observer: has this been identified yet? http://i.imgur.com/5cQ6o.jpg Moths, everywhere.

Si Nir à atteint Amaranth, pourquoi est-elle "morte" ? En dehors du Godhead, la toute-puissance n'est pas infini ? Sa veut pas dire qu'elle à atteint un stade encore plus puissant que Anu/Sithis ?

Du Mundus à la Mort mortelle : du centre au bientôt recyclé.
"Ceci doit être vu comme une opportunité et en aucun cas lassante, même si certains préféreront abandonner, tant il est plus aisé d'ambrasser l'amant que d'en devenir un soi-même."
Nous voici avec la grande résignation de l’Écriture Sacrée : imaginer la subcréation APRÈS la mort mortelle, dont l'esquisse se voudrait un écho du Mundus, et à travers cet imaginant, l'échec de tant.

Do you know who else is missing?

"Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph)/ Anu-Padomay (enantiomorph with requisite betrayal)/ ?* (Witnessing Shield-thane who goes blind or is maimed and thus solidifies the wave-form; blind/maimed = = final decision)
*Seek and you shall find. I hid it."

29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.

Okay, I'm looking at the Anuad again.

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There are already four entities present here, all of whom could be potential witnesses.

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The birth of Nir. She comes from their mingling - what is in other stories called the Aurbis. She is the subject of their rivalry, thus the female principle.

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Presumably, this is the event which was witnessed. Creation is born afterwards. It is not the world we know, but a previous one. And finally, something significant happens - the first death. That of Nir herself.

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The creation of Nirn as we know it - an entity distinct from Nir. Anu is struck through the chest, as Lorkhan was in other stories. (Perhaps it is significant that Lorkhan and the aedra have no part in Nirn's creation in this version) Both are pulled outside time forever, and might count as "missing". Or perhaps one can still see them grappling outside time, during a dragon break.

The blood of Padomay becomes the aedra, the blood of Anu the stars, and their combined blood the aedra. Men and Elves go on to rival each other in a reflection of the Anu/Padomay conflict.

Nir is distinct from Nirn. She is not even its mother - she is the mother of it's original unbroken form before Anu pieces it together. She perhaps represents a world that only existed in a past that is no longer true.

Obviously this is different from other accounts, that where Nirn is conceived of by Lorkhan the et'ada to be a place of transcendence. Where the aedra construct it, only to find themselves entrapped in the new concept they have created - mortal death. Only to subgradate further into the mortal races, perhaps one day capable of finding that final subgradient, that state beyond death - the Amaranth.

In the Anuad, death is unintentional. It originates from Creation. Nir dies giving life to Creation in the same way that the Aedra die giving life to Nirn in other stories. Creation/Nirn are mortality. So as to the witness - how does he/she achieve amaranth? The only way through is death. To illustrate this problem, think about the Lorkhan/Akatosh/Mangus triad. Lorkhan and Akatosh fight, catalyzed by the creation of Nirn. Magnus abandons Nirn to preserve his mortality, living to tell the tale. If this is the model, how can the observer achieve amaranth?

So what are your thoughts on the origin of death in the Anuad, and its implications on Amaranth?

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So's its out-of-time re-examination. Ahem.

Alessia didn't have the power to absorb dragon souls. Hers was a much more nuanced power: to dream of liberty and give it a name and on her deathbed make Covenant with the Aka-Tusk.

Perhaps if you had read her histories of the Dragon War, this would be more clear.

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Sorry if this has been discussed earlier. I haven't been following the threads, but I wanted to toss my two cents in. I'm a lore noob, actually. Forgive me If I'm way too off.
That's hilarious. I woke up at 4:00AM this morning with this very thought. I lost an hour of sleep because of that.

So everyone grab your shoe horns and let's plaaaaay...

Crowd: "MAKE! IT! FIT!"

*cue applause*

From Kirkbride's very helpful rundown post here...

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The Dwemer, especially after Red Mountain, can certainly be considered both a "people" and a "concept."

Since The Elk has suggested that anyone who becomes the Amaranth wouldn't hang around the current Aurbis-as-we-know-it, (I can't find a good reference since the Imperial Library's Drupal install has gone to [NUMINIT] and I won't link to that gameskyrim forum) and we've not seen hide nor hair of the Dwemer since the aforementioned events, their behavior certainly fits.

Regarding point 2: Is Lorkhan considered part of the Original Creation? I don't think he is, he seems a secondary creation to me. But if so, his heart is involved and that's a connection.

Regarding point 3: If this Amaranth took place after the original creation, its involvement with the current Aurbis is irrelevant, and this new Amaranth's Aurbis is beyond our ability to comprehend unless someone's made a game about it...?

We can also try to visualize the Dwemer as a concept external from the initial act of creation. Since they seem so skeptical about the concept of the Aedra and Daedra as Gods, could they represent an abstract concept such as "doubt?" A pyrrhonic presence observing the act of creation?

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You could.

Pot shot the second: Mnemoli (and the stars?)

Arguments separated by lines for easy reference.


Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break)

Untime condition fulfilled.


..and so to most , the middle dawn is little more than a undisputable and grandiose display of mystic power, which is to say nonsense, and few regard it as the numinous gateway that it really signifies. Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen... (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break)

"This is not just a comet that predicts a good harvest next near, you guys." This is a disk, i.e. a world? A world visiting ours, looking down with curiosity whenever it can?

The number of the Hurling Disk is 17 (Sermon Twenty-Nine), which according to this websiteabout the science of numerology represents (among just about everything else you'd want it to represent) love for all of humanity and is the Star – it is immortality – a name that lives on after you have left this plane of existence. Got nothing on the number behind it.


Compare the emphasis on a single word in all of the following texts:

Above them all is the horizon where only one stands, though no one stands there yet. It is proof of the new. (Sermon Thirteen)

I have seen proof, as any who come Up during Landfall Season, when the winds die down enough Above that all may make pilgrimage under the banner of Vehk and Vehk. [...] When stabilized, the words become proof. (Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel)

"The middle dawn is an axis for the spirits of the Foretime. As such, many of the beliefs of the primitive psijiics cannot be discounted; here, in this place, are proofs within proofs... (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break) This passage is followed by the first quoted line in this post.


Where does Jubal-lun-Sul go for his pilgrimage?

The psijiics hold [the Blue Star] in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world... (Vehk's Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break)


Who did he meet there?

The Digitals say we come from another star, but so many have forgotten. I have not, for my lineage granted me audience with Memory. (Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel)

When highlighting 'Memory', I am referring to the Greek root in Mnemoli. The star link is self-explanatory.


There is a certain distinction between Mnemoli (and her kind) and other stars. At least, that's what Mankar suggests by despising the former and praising the the latter. I get the impression that his grudge against them stems from the fact that they only show themselves when linear time is absent, which he considers callous?



Last, but clearly not least:
What's up with the Blue Star itself? That's a good little hidden bit that I don't want to ruin. Someone go find it. (Some forum post way back when)

I'm trying to tie down the parameters for the search, here. What can we learn from these clues?


From the Rundown:

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1) He's intentionally vague about whether this is a person, a place, or a thing. So far we've been pretty crazy about it being a person. I think we're making a mistake here. However, I can't possibly imagine how a place or a thing could dream, unless it's KINMUNE, but according to this post:

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So that might rule out any Exoforms, unless KINMUNE's presence in Saarthal was known to developers for a very long time.

A concept, however, such as a God, could well do all the dreaming it wanted.

Also it's probably irrelevant, but the KINMUNE text was posted here with the thread title "For you, my Sul, Happy Birthday," which is possibly a reference to Alandro Sul, Nerevar's shield thane, and so on that note let's move on to #2.

2) The original creation, Nir, the witness figure in the Enantiomorph, and the numbers are entwined but not the same thing. Connections can be found everywhere between them, but nothing so far has felt solid enough for everyone to get behind.

The Original Creation is a reference to the creation of the Aurbis and, as explained in the Annotated Anuad, the binding of Anu & Padomay to create Nir, a personification of the Aurbis. Nir gave birth to the twelve worlds that would eventually become Nirn as we know it, and Anu & Padomay fell outside of Time.

Who can we consider to be the Witness Figure in this creation? And which creation are we discussing?

The creation of Nir? A result of the interplay between Anu & Padomay, before anything else existed. Before them there was only the Void without time. Does the Void dream? I can't imagine it would have very interesting dreams. Seems like the Void would have a rather vacuous personality.

Nir's creation of the Worlds that became Nirn? Nir created the worlds by romancing Anu, which means Padomay witnessed their creation, in a creepy sort of "roommate who doesn't understand the concept of boundaries" sort of way. But it seems as though the Witness needs to be wounded or blinded or something, and I'm not sure where that happens here, unless emotional wounding counts. Does it?

3) I really haven't figured this one out yet. Perhaps the Amaranth's dream hasn't yet started?

4) MK lives in a dangerous neighborhood.

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Woooo, I'm not the only one! Maybe this fedora isn't aluminium after all.

Add some Shadowkey in, though. Shadows are the reflections of possible worlds created by conflicting forces. Azra attempted to cross over into the possible worlds of shadow, to 'instantiate all Azras at once,' and ended up trapped in a crystal (29, Captive Sage?). Magnus is the Witness of Mundane creation; we've seen his excised Eye ourselves. The Sun is depicted as a captive in the Song of Aevar Stone-Singer, and is freed by a flaming eye. As well, Sermon 10 links Magnus to the fiery eye idea. The Digitals (link to numbers?) include Magnus according to the Loveletter, which also states that he is not their Ward. I think it's likely that the original creation's witness was a Sun as well - or, rather, a Sun-Shadow split; the single, realized reality (Sun) and the reflection of possibility (its Shadow). So it looks like this

Nir (Prison-Freedom) / Anu-Padomay (Stasis-Change) / Sun-Shadow (Reality-Possibility)

What if the original Sun was successful in the same thing Azra tried? What if the Sun/Shadow split recombined (Trans-Shadowed Sun)? Absolute realization (no possibility, all reality) + infinite possibility (all possibility, no reality) = absolutely infinite realized possibility + [NULL]. Absolutely infinite realized possibility = Amaranth?

Or perhaps we don't need Shadowkey at all. What do you get when you punch a hole in a Void?

Cold/warm, Eyesore?

On numerology:
29 (the Captive Sage) = 2+9 = 11 (the Master)
The Captive Sage is composed of the Enantiomorph and the Missing. It decomposes into the Master.
2+ 9 = 11 (the Master)
The Enantiomorph and the Missing give the Master.
11 = 11 (the Master)
11 + 11 = 22 (Unknown, Master Builder)
11+11+11 = 33 (the Master Teacher, or the Anticipations)
Three Masters give the Master Teacher. "It represents self-sacrifice and beliefs in Utopia. It is often co-dependent, and is sometimes a compulsive liar."
7+18 = 25 (the Emperor, and Sermon 25 has to do with VV/VV city, and includes this line: 'This is the flowering scheme of the Aurbis. This is the promise of the PSJJJ : egg, image, man, god, city, state. I serve and am served. I am made of wire and string and mortar and I accede my own precedent, world without am.'

I dunno. Make of that what you will. The Captive Sage is the Master Teacher, sacrificing self for creation and the Flowering Scheme of Aurbis? I dunno.

Ah, donc Nir aurait fait exprès de mourir ?

Mais les divinités (in Godhead) ne sont-elles pas immortelles, et lorsqu'une déité se fait "tuer", sa veut pas juste dire qu'elle  perd beaucoup et que sa conscience et dispersé au 4 vents ?

Tu dit que la mort est une technique pour sortir du Godhead, normal, c'est Lorkhan qui à créer Mundus (enfin pas vraiment, mais tu vois se que je veux dire), mais les divinités ne peuvent pas mourir comme je l'ai dit ci-dessus, Nir aurait donc trouver une technique pour mourir et atteindre son but ?

Thematically, Rebel/King/Observer could be an enantiomorph, but the strictest definition of an enantiomorph is here.  An object and its mirror image are enantiomorphs, opposites.  This works the same way in chemistry: rectus and sinister formations of a compound are mirror images of each other.  It's worth noting that the Observer does not (strictly speaking) have to be present, but for the enantiomorph to produce a result, the Observer must be present to "solidify the waveform."  I don't know if this has anything to do with the theory of Consciousness Causes Collapse but I'd love it if it did.

A similar phenomenon also exists in sub-atomic particles, where the spin of two particles mirror each other.  However, this is where the similarity ends, as weak-force interaction between the two particles violates the parity.

If you're somewhat Asian-minded, as I am, it's easier to imagine the (or an) enantiomorph as the Tao, the result of the interactions between Yin and Yang, two perfectly equal and opposing forces.

Le CHIM est donc la première technique pour sortir du Godhead (le CHIM est une technique des mortelles pour atteindre la divinité, à moins que celle-ci soit aussi utilisé par les dieux Lorkhaniques pour sortir du Godhead ?). Et donc si on considère que CHIM=1er stade de "quittage" du Godhead, la mort véritable d'une divinité en serait le second ?

Nous voici avec la grande résignation de l’Écriture Sacrée : imaginer la subcréation APRÈS la mort mortelle, dont l'esquisse se voudrait un écho du Mundus, et à travers cet imaginant, l'échec de tant.
Les rapports des Digitaux sur les actes du Dieu Lunaire dans tout ceci se nomme la Grande Douleur : "Le Dieu Lunaire a échoué avec ses propres moyens, à montrer aux nouveaux rejetons comment ils pourraient ne pas être."
Vous dans la Quatrième ère avez déjà été témoins de nombreuses tentatives d'atteindre le dernier subgradient de tout AE, cet état qui existe au-delà de la mort mortelle. Le Numidium. L'Effort. La Tour Prolixe. CHIM. L'énantiomorphe. Le Scarabée qui s'est Transformé en Nouvel Homme.
Tout simplement, comme les Dieux ne peuvent connaître la joie comme les mortels leur création, seuls les mortels peuvent comprendre la joie de la Liberté en devenant des souches des modèles qui permettent de supplanter la mort mortelle.

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Probably not. Lady N and the Elk have expressed disapproval of taking the Summoning Day Letters seriously, so unless they're playing a very cunning game of subterfuge, it's probably unrelated.

The story of Ruddy Man is told in sermon 28, the number of the Drowned Lamp. What is this?
"UNDERSTAND THAT SITHISIT STILL TRAVELS IN A PHOSPHORESCENT MIRROR OF THE SKY DROWNED AND SMILING"
A lamp immersed in water would seem to be useless, unless the immersion is an illusion: a reflection of a lamp above.

Why is this important?
"An imitation of submersion is love's premonition."
"Why Love? Know Love to avoid the Landfall"

The Landfall is the failure to achieve Amaranth, but a necessary challenge on the path to achieving it.
"This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite."

What we know of the Landfall is that it was not the fall of the Ministry of Truth, but what does the Landfall threaten, if not the City?
"The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double."
"I build for you a city of swords, by which I mean laws that cut the people who live there into better shapes."
"This is the promise of the PSJJJJ: egg, image, man, god, city, state. I serve and am served. I am made of wire and string and mortar and I accede my own precedent, world without am."

The City in abstract is shown to be Amaranth. Let us posit the fall of the Ministry to be a lesser landfall. A toy. A myth-echo. Then perhaps Vivec the City is was a toy Amaranthine?

Hint #3 is a puzzler to me as well. I've been pacing around a lot and hoping my boss doesn't notice how little work I'm getting done. This is what I've come up with:

A dreaming Amaranth would leave Mundus in its rearview mirror. (oh look, TIL's drupal is FUBAR again. How helpful.) Therefore this Amaranth is either long gone or hasn't started dreaming yet. It's either here, or it isn't. This is not helpful to our search in any way and now I'm kinda sorry I wrote any of it. But at the same time, I can't imagine any way that an Amaranth who can dream, would chose not too.

"Nir" in Dragon Language is "Hunt." Kirkbride calls this a "good find," but that doesn't necessarily mean it's relevant. If it is, I can determine two things:

There is a connection here with Dragons.
There is a connection here with Hunts (of a non-specific kind).

And the worst part is, it may not even be terribly relevant, but just amusing. I can't imagine MK would've commented on it if it wasn't relevant, though. Geeze I'm doing a lot of second-guessing.

Nevertheless I feel like Nir is the closest we've gotten to this Amaranth. Can anyone make the numbers fit? I think, having just sat through the first block of commercials, that we're heading into the second round of Make It FIt.

29: Captive Sage. I dunno.
2: Enantiomorph. Sure. Anu & Padomay.
9: Missing. In this proposal: Nir.
2+9=11:The Number of the Master. In many numerology systems, addition is the same as production via copulation. Nir + Anu & Padomay resulted in the original 12 worlds. These worlds were then combined by Anu to form Nirn. Is Nirn, or the 12 worlds, the Master?
9-2=7: Sword at the Center. Padomay used a sword to destroy Nir's 12 Worlds. Additionally, he struck Anu through the chest (center) with (I assume) his sword.
9*2=18: The Egg, or Six Times the Wise. I'm not sure about this one. I don't know how multiplication works in numerology.
9/2=4.5: 4=The Corners of the House of Troubles and 5=The Corners of the World. Again, I'm still researching multiplication and division.

Nope. file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif

On another note, I think I can solve the numbers.


I'm going to assume that one of the numbers represents Amaranth, purely because they will be of little help otherwise.

We already understand 2, 9, 29, and 11. So that leaves 7 and 18. The sword at the center, and the egg or six times the wise.

Number Seven: The Sword at the center.

In my personal opinion, this represents convention, death, mundus, and reaching heaven by violence.



We can see that the sword at the center is in opposition to the lover. The lover has no double, which is in opposition to the dualistic spiral-shaped unfolding of Creation. This seems like the prime law of nature, but it is not a tendency or a correlation, but "Dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars," i.e. the Magne-ge and Daedra. It relies on enantiomorph, betrayal, "The Codes of Mephala." It is ready for its grave.

The sword was Vivec's path, but he suggests another. "Moreover, I've left instructions for others to do the same, and look more pretty than I did doing it!..." Love, not betrayal. So let's look at the egg.


Number Eighteen: The Egg or Six Times the Wise.

Everyone probably thinks of Vivec when they read that. But is that what this represents? The cosmic egg is usually a real-world symbol of an infant universe. Vivec refers to the universe as egg-layered. It is indeed easy to think of it that way, the layers of subgradience nested within one another like a series of eggshells. We know Amaranth is the echo of the Mundus.

Okay, so what is six times the wise, then?

18 = 6 x 3.

Three is called The Wise because it is the number of the Tribunal: Mercy, Mystery, Mastery.

The tribunal follows the grand archetype that has been unfurling since the beginning. Almalexia, Mercy, is of course the female principal or Nir. Sotha Sil is our captive sage. Our mystery witness. Vivec represents dualism (poetry/murder, male/female). As such, he is the perfect figure to represent the enantiomorph.
So Mercy = female principle, Mystery = witness, mastery = enantiomorph.
Why 6, though?

The pattern above is the force that describes the subgradient pattern of the universe. Anu/Padomay combine and split into the Aurbis, The Aurbis gives us into Aetherius/Oblivion which combine and split into Nirn, etc. etc. So let's count the levels of subgradience listed in the loveletter.
1 - Void to Aurbis, Nought to Pattern
2 - Aurbis to Aetherius: Possibility to Maintenance by Time
3 - Aetherius to Oblivion: Creation to Destruction
4 - Oblivion to Mundus: Debris of all Possibility to Anchor of all things
5 - Mundus to Mortal Death: Centerpoint to the Soon Recycled
6 - Mortal Death to Z: Antinymic to [blah blah blah]

Tada! 6 times the wise is the sixth permutation of the mastery/mercy/mystery pattern. The sixth subgradient.

18 is amaranth.

(Warning: I use a lot of quotation marks here and it started to get on my nerves.  It will likely get on your nerves too).

On the whole, this post is taking me a while to work through.  There's a lot of strong stuff in it.  But a quick note about the quoted line above:

If you're quoting the Loveletter, Amaranth is the State Gradient Echo of Mundus Centerex, which is different from an "echo" of Mundus.  An "echo" often denotes (thematically) a lesser duplication of the original.  Similar, but not as "loud" or "pure," if you like.

A State Gradient Echo of Mundus Centerex is a picture of the "brain" of Mundus.  I used to interpret it as knowledge of the "programming" behind the way the physical sub-gradient works.  It could also mean a visualization of the "brain" that is dreaming Mundus: the Godhead.

Anyway this may or may not have been helpful to anyone, now that I think of it.

EDIT: Wait, maybe it does.  You understand the Godhead.  You see how it works, how it's put together, how the brain operates.  Therefore (probably) you can do it yourself.  You have the knowledge of how to dream your own reality.  But that doesn't mean you have to start right then and there.

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"18 less one (the victor)" The number 1 is the Nerevar in Sermon 11, and 11 is the Sharmat, Dagoth Ur. If the Nerevar is the Victor, then 18 less 1 is the Hurling Disc, and that creates a connection between Nerevar and the Hurling Disc.

Is it possible that, if Vivec is 18, "18 Less 1" is Nerevar without Vivec? The Nerevarine? Or more likely Vivec after Foul Murder, or Vivec without the Nerevar?

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Also the fact it states that "This Sermon is untrue."

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I'd always kinda thought that was a note placed there by someone in the Temple, because it also says "this sermon is forbidden." So I was thinking because Vivec expressed doubt, the Tribunal Temple was suppressing that Lesson.

Could have a double-meaning, though. Hmmm...

Oh also: from Sermon 18:

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Who is the last, missing member of Vivec's Nine Sons?

Nerevar.

Okay guys, don't go crazy.

18 isn't the hurling disk. That's 17, the middle dawn.

Let's try to think on more cosmological terms. I don't think the answer is going to be one of the major characters/heroes of the games. We've exhausted those possibilities over and over again.

It might be interesting to think about what the (+1) that differentiates 18 from middle dawn is, though. There's an 8&1, the sum of which is 9 connection, the meaning of which should be obvious. file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gifBut perhaps that is neither here nor there.

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I've been trying to make Nir fit, but it doesn't work so well. She's a creation, not a witness.

Padomay witnesses Nir and Anu's horizontal mambo, though, and he retreats in bitterness. In the end, Anu, Padomay and Nir all end up being "wounded" in one way or another. Anu & Padomay both end up "outside" time at the end, and Nir ends up as close to dead as those beings can get. The Witness cannot be part of the Enantiomorphic Creation, I think, so that puts us back to Padomay, which might also mean Sithis.

As far as numbers go...

2: Anu & Nir.
9: The Witness, Padomay.
11: The Number of the Master. This could mean Anu & Nir & Padomay, the original Gods of creation, and thus "Masters," but this feels sketchy, so I might be thinking about it wrong.
7: The Sword at the Center. The Witness without Anu & Nir? The Sword being the weapon Padomay wielded in anger against his brother and his wife...?
18 & 4.5: I don't know.

Thoughts?


I still suspect (strongly) that the Captive Sage or Witness could well be something "hidden" by the Leaper Demon King from the last kalpa, who maybe watched all this happening. But again, the only entities I know of who survived the last Eating were some of the Daedra (specifically: Mehrunes Dagon), and of course Umaril's Father.

I've always thought that the Kalpa system brought us back to the Dawn era rather than all the way back to Anu/Padomay.

I can't agree with you on Padomay as the Witness. He's part of the enantiomorph along with Anu. They need a third party to witness them. I don't think it's Nir either. She has a role already as the female principle. This is my guess:

29 - the witness
2 - anu/padomay
9 - Nir?
7 - Subgradience/Violence/Enantiomorph
18 - Love/Cosmos/The Amaranth

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The fall of the city is landfall. The failure of a city to hatch into state, in this context an attempt and failure at ascenscion, at ungradience.
Egg, image, man, god, city, state.
Each of these should be seen as symbolic as well as literal, as transcending the base meaning of the word and applying it to enlightenment.
Is the Landfall a reference to Vivec's failure to achieve amaranth?
Did Vivec go from Egg to Image to Man to God to City, only to at the last step, fall?
Is the Loveletter a manual to prevent this?

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Kama Fyr seems to see another dimension or maybe the two do not have to oppose.
Landfall implies to me a crash-landing, what happens when amaranth fails and the dream-shards fall back to a lower state of mythic gradience? Landfall is not implied to be a joyous occasion, not a new swarming of before undiscovered lands, rather a tragedy, a make-do.

On numerology, the same mysterious Kama Fyr to whom I owe my signature, I never asked if I could use and so usurped it even, posted on this rhyme about Peryite, on the original Boethiah Summoning Day thread:

"Prepare the bones of the missing to
Each and every day until the last
Refill the heart signified by the glyph
Y, numbered seven, that times the wise
Is the cross in the Serpent's skin
Twice again the number of the master
Entering the invisible gate that others flee.

Lest the above be thought adventitious,
13
9
7
16 -> 12 -> 379
3 + 4 = 7 -> 39, /3 = 13 -> 36, /3 = 12, /3 = 4 -> 242
3 -> 112, + 242 = 354 <- 22
9 -> 11, x 2 = 22, /2 = 11 ...
17 11 9

I operate on a timetable that spans years.

Also, the Treasure Wood should enter into this.
Edited by Kama Fyr, 03 November 2011 - 10:44 PM."

I dont know if its wise to disregard this poster.
I always thought secretly that Kama Fyr was a more poetic, more earthly, mystical way of saying in essence Omega Fyr (which I envision to be the culmination of Divayth's work), a name which would have far too much hardness, ratio, associated with it.
Please correct me if Im wrong (Kama).

Punaise même la métaphysique chrétienne (que j'aime beaucoup d'ailleurs) n'est pas aussi compliquer... Tu dis que Nir est pas l'Amaranth, et que celui ci est "l'Observateur", ça veut dire que l'Amaranth est une entité, pas un endroit, ah... d'accord...

No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*

(Toesock, sorry you took offense at the description of the demise of Barfok.)

*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.

The City in abstract is shown to be Amaranth.

29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.

Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.

He has come down from the mountains, the chitin of his belly segments freshly painted in Faith. The suns shine overhead, each uttering his name in their way. The barrens before him distort in the blur of their heat as he climbs the last hill, but his vision is clear. It always has been. His fifth and second arms encircle his staff as his mandibles click out a small prayer. Beyond the barrens lay the Crescent of the Eighty and One Thrones, and all the villages that hang from it like a jeweled belt. They do not know it yet, those millions that work, rule, and commit their countless sins out there in the cradle of all written history, but he will save them. In ones and twos, then in droves, and then their own priests and their own kings will throw down their false idols and take up the New Faith. He would permit himself some pride if that emotion occurred to him; instead, he tests his locust wings on the wind, permitting himself to glide into the first steps of Salvation.

Bon, c'était pas vraiment un dieu

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TU VAS TE FAIRE TAPER SUR LES DOIGTS PAR SIFRAEL !

Nope. file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif

On another note, I think I can solve the numbers.


I'm going to assume that one of the numbers represents Amaranth, purely because they will be of little help otherwise.

We already understand 2, 9, 29, and 11. So that leaves 7 and 18. The sword at the center, and the egg or six times the wise.

Number Seven: The Sword at the center.

In my personal opinion, this represents convention, death, mundus, and reaching heaven by violence.



We can see that the sword at the center is in opposition to the lover. The lover has no double, which is in opposition to the dualistic spiral-shaped unfolding of Creation. This seems like the prime law of nature, but it is not a tendency or a correlation, but "Dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars," i.e. the Magne-ge and Daedra. It relies on enantiomorph, betrayal, "The Codes of Mephala." It is ready for its grave.

The sword was Vivec's path, but he suggests another. "Moreover, I've left instructions for others to do the same, and look more pretty than I did doing it!..." Love, not betrayal. So let's look at the egg.


Number Eighteen: The Egg or Six Times the Wise.

Everyone probably thinks of Vivec when they read that. But is that what this represents? The cosmic egg is usually a real-world symbol of an infant universe. Vivec refers to the universe as egg-layered. It is indeed easy to think of it that way, the layers of subgradience nested within one another like a series of eggshells. We know Amaranth is the echo of the Mundus.

Okay, so what is six times the wise, then?

18 = 6 x 3.

Three is called The Wise because it is the number of the Tribunal: Mercy, Mystery, Mastery.

The tribunal follows the grand archetype that has been unfurling since the beginning. Almalexia, Mercy, is of course the female principal or Nir. Sotha Sil is our captive sage. Our mystery witness. Vivec represents dualism (poetry/murder, male/female). As such, he is the perfect figure to represent the enantiomorph.
So Mercy = female principle, Mystery = witness, mastery = enantiomorph.
Why 6, though?

The pattern above is the force that describes the subgradient pattern of the universe. Anu/Padomay combine and split into the Aurbis, The Aurbis gives us into Aetherius/Oblivion which combine and split into Nirn, etc. etc. So let's count the levels of subgradience listed in the loveletter.
1 - Void to Aurbis, Nought to Pattern
2 - Aurbis to Aetherius: Possibility to Maintenance by Time
3 - Aetherius to Oblivion: Creation to Destruction
4 - Oblivion to Mundus: Debris of all Possibility to Anchor of all things
5 - Mundus to Mortal Death: Centerpoint to the Soon Recycled
6 - Mortal Death to Z: Antinymic to [blah blah blah]

Tada! 6 times the wise is the sixth permutation of the mastery/mercy/mystery pattern. The sixth subgradient.

18 is amaranth.

J'ai plutôt l'impression que l'Amaranth c'est la somme du concept de 3(M/M/M ou encore Principe Féminim/Observateur/Enantiomorphe) aux 6 étapes de création/évolution/subgradience que l'on connait

Ugly links, but potentially helpful in orienting oneself?

This is meant to be a basic introduction to this rather unwieldy thread chain. We are on a mission to hunt down the one person/place/idea in TES that has achieved the state of enlightenment known as Amaranth. If you aren't sure what Amaranth is, read Loveletter to the Fifth Era located here: http://www.imperial-...purpose-tamriel
For more contemplation, read the first few of these threads, where we discuss it ad nausium.

History of the Thread:

The Threads:

Index of Mk's Clues:

The Theories So Far (I've only linked ones that were posted with some evidence or sparked some discussion):


The Missing Witness:
During the hunt, someone brought up the missing witness of the Anu/Padomay enantiomorph: http://forums.bethso...st__p__21728907
And it was apparently very close: http://forums.bethso...st__p__21729109

At that point, the Hunt for the Amaranth became a hunt for the Witness...We tend to agree that there is a strong connection to the Elder Scrolls, and the Numbers.

The Numbers:



Also discussed:

The city as a symbol of Amaranth - http://forums.bethso...st__p__21773088
The Middle Dawn having some relation to Amaranth - http://forums.bethso...st__p__21803602

(If there is anything you want added, shoot me a link and I'll edit it in)

Et toi Sifrael, qu'elle est ton idée/intuition sur le sujet ?

We haven't seen a fleshed-out alternative to CHIM to support something more preferable, but I promised a long while back to provide one. We'll see.
I will say that, CHIM or not, there is no evidence that either Talos nor Vehk achieved Amaranth. If they did, Tamriel would be in their rearview mirror. The Amaranth deserves its own topic, really. Its core concept is the most divisive among the mystics, in my opinion.

Intéressant, ça : on connait peu d'Ehlnofeys et "d'Os de la terre bruts", mais Y'ffre fait partie de ces quelques-uns. Et même s'il est peu probable que l'un d'eux soit l'Amaranth, il peut exister un lien (à moins que ce ne soit encore les scénaristes qui délirent)

Mnethm (K Sign) – Mnethm is the Fortified K, the fount of inspiration. Why her temples are found mostly underground is a riddle for the Sep Thing. Mnethm governs the domain of motivation, especially in engineering and scientific discovery. In this role, she finds herself regularly contested by the Thermal Spirit, who would halt all ideas of Progress, and Clan Box, who manically scrutinizes Mnethm’s inventions for any potential buzz-kill to the Magne-Ge’s effervescent frolicking.
Mnumbrial (Y Sign) – Mnumbrial was once revered as the mightiest of the Y-spec Spirits. Then her issue, the Dawns, succumbed to the Critic Mark, a curse of Nana Null that has yet to be lifted. The Untime Folk still propitiate Mnumbrial, depicting her as a gigantic Mother Dawn holding an urn of endless M that feeds into any nearby sliver, wake, or dream. The Wise say that this M is a symbol of the loss Mnumbrial feels for failing her children… and a perhaps even as a path to curing them.
Mnender-Foil (Y Sign) – These days, Mnender-Foil the Amazing is more renowned than his truly-divine mother, Mnumbrial. In truth, the mighty Mnender-Foil is oft-regarded as only a demimemberdress of pop culture importance, an image thread in tapestries and way posts. Some say, however, Mnender-Foil will come as a herald of terrible and hopeful aspect, roaring in the return of the Dawns in proper, all of them rid forever of the Critic Mark.

Scarab-Framer (Y Sign) - Before the Breaking, Scarab-Framer was an Alchemist of great Merid Who Held the Whole of the Blackblock Under Her Hood. Since untime immemorial, it was Scarab-Framer that not only set into motion the growth of M-Nulls but also their prosperity. He is the Fore-Dawn and watcher of the Y. That their resiliency has been tampered with since the Blur is a curse that has vexed his mind into near-immobility. If Scarab-Framer could achieve the insight that escapes him still, the Y might repopulate itself, free of all evil.

30. The Scarab. 10

31. The Listening Frame. 473

Le Scarabée qui s'est Transformé en Nouvel Homme.[...]Le Nouvel Homme devient Dieu devient Amaranth, hypnagogique éternel. Les hallucinations deviennent lucides sous Ses yeux et alors, comme tous les parents, l'Amaranth chérit et adore tout ce qui provient de Lui.

"The Prophet of Landfall," a birthday gift for Kurt Kuhlmann:
He has come down from the mountains, the chitin of his belly segments freshly painted in Faith. The suns shine overhead, each uttering his name in their way. The barrens before him distort in the blur of their heat as he climbs the last hill, but his vision is clear. It always has been. His fifth and second arms encircle his staff as his mandibles click out a small prayer. Beyond the barrens lay the Crescent of the Eighty and One Thrones, and all the villages that hang from it like a jeweled belt. They do not know it yet, those millions that work, rule, and commit their countless sins out there in the cradle of all written history, but he will save them. In ones and twos, then in droves, and then their own priests and their own kings will throw down their false idols and take up the New Faith. He would permit himself some pride if that emotion occurred to him; instead, he tests his locust wings on the wind, permitting himself to glide into the first steps of Salvation.

((18+11)*7+9)+(29*(2*4.5))=473

(11-(18/9)+7)*29+(2*4.5)=473

(18/(11-9)+7)*29+(2*4.5)=473

((18+11)*9)+29*7+(2*4.5)=473

(18*11+9)+(29+(2*4.5))*7=473

(18+11)*7+(29*9+(2*4.5)=473

etc...

Y a trop de solutions possibles, et j'ai regardé qu'avec "(2*4.5)", parce qu'avec "(18*4.5)", on sait faire encore une ribambelle d'autres équations.

Le problème c'est que les nombres donnés tourne trop autour du chiffre 9 qui est le plus maniable. Je vois pas en quoi ça peut nous servir à trouver l'amaranth...

29 = 2 + 9 =11 + 7 = 18.
Lets put this together.

The Captive Sage = The Enantiomorph + The Missing = The Number of the Master + The Sword at the Center = The Egg, or Six Times the Wise.
With the point between The Corners of House of Troubles and The Corners of the World.

(2) Lorkhan + (9) Akatosh = (11) The Master, the Amaranth (maybe).
(2) Lorkhan - (9) Akatosh = (7) The Sword at the Center, the removal of divinity, estrangement from statesmanship.
Hah! The product of (2) Lorkhan * (9) Akatosh = (18) The Egg, and by extension Nirn and the egg-shaped entirety of existence. It's what you get when you combine the two together, when Lorkhan binds and blinds Akatosh, the Captive Sage.

Still can't get my head around Division. Akatosh / Lorkhan = The Corners of the House of Troubles and possibly also the Five Corners of the World?

That's wonderful, Rottendeadite!

Take a look at this anuadic multiplication:
(2) Anu-Padomay * (9) Aka-as-Witness = (18) Nir-the-World-Egg.
It makes sense in context.

Addition (with these figures) leads to a triade similar to Talos.
Subtraction's interpreatation is way out of my league.
Division - two primordial forces being divided by a third (Witness, Time, etc.) - accentuation [in history through Anu- or Padomay-aligned characters?].

Four Corners are special, as we've seen: they've undergone a change in alignment.